OK - all you non smackers - what would you do instead then?

[lisalisa]

Message withdrawn

I was smacked as a child - the full 'I'll put you over my knee rigmarole' and once slippered. I hated my parents for it. It was unfair, using the fact that they were bigger and more powerful than me to humiliate me. Although even worse than smacking was once when some friends came to ask if I was playing out and I heard my father telling them 'No, because she's been naughty. The humiliation thing again.

I do have a very close relationship with my mother - in every other way she was fab - and an OK relationship with my dad now (which was strained for different reasons). But I will never, ever, agree with my mother on children needing a smack.

I have smacked ds, twice, when a situation has got out of control. So I'm no saint. But I try hard to find other strategies. I really don't want to resort to physical violence. Both on moral and pragmatic grounds - he's a big boy at not-quite three and he'll be stronger than me in a few years. I'd rather have other ways of stopping bad behaviour than relying on being bigger than him.

I have similar memories to edam. My parents managed to alternate this overblown sanctimonious drawn-out torture style of discipline with unpredictable bouts of psychotic rage totally unrelated to anything we had done. It was like living in some sort of surreal nightmare. The idea of forgiving them is just laughable, I'm afraid.

So I'm not objective either . Is anyone, really, on either side of the debate? Something we all have in common is that we've all been children and we've all been brought up by other adults, one way and another. So we're all carrying an agenda with our own kids, really, whether we know it or not. IMHO.

I've never lifted a finger to either of my sons, it makes me feel sick to think of it. I couldn't. And no, I don't think I'm perfect. I just make other mistakes instead.

YKW - I was not judging you at all - but responding to this - 'soapbox, still jealous that you have much better controo of yourself than I have'! So I wrote 'YKW - I think it's much easier to control yourself when you have totally shut the option out of your tools IYSWIM!'

What I was trying to say was that it isn't about control for me - but about not having smacking as an option! If you have a total aversion to smacking children, then you just don't even consider it!

Helenemjay - I'm not too sure what you are trying to say about why you smack. I can understand how frustrating a 14month old like your DS must have been, but since people surely don't smack babies, then smacking wouldn't have been an option anyway. Perhaps I'm missing the connection - it's late and I'm getting tired

Very interesting discussion - and my sympathies lisalisa, that sounds hard.

I just wanted to say that unlike some posters here, I was smacked by my parents and have absolutely no bad memories or resentment about it.

It was an extremely rare occurrence and was reserved for situations where we were doing something actually dangerous (rather than just naughty). It was the ultimate sanction. It didn't hurt - my sisters and I hit each other far harder than that - it was simply a signal that we had done something absolutely beyond the pale.

For "normal" day-to-day transgessions we were reasoned with or had time out. We had very calm parents who never lost their tempers and I had a very loving and secure childhood.

I think that in many other families smacking is or was a very different thing, part of a deeper pattern of abuse or lack of control. So it's easy for me to see that another person might have a very different feeling about being smacked. I just don't think it was the smacking "per se" that was the problem.

I don't buy the theory of "it's not acceptable for an adult to use physical force with a child because it wouldn't be acceptable for another adult" because we all the time treat our children in ways which would be abusive if applied to another adult. If your dp shut you in your room or witheld treats or decided what time you had to go to sleep or what you could watch on TV or any of the millions of other ways in which we control our children's lives, it would be abuse. But these things are acceptable precisely because we are adults and our children are children. The rules are different. That doesn't make smacking right, but it does mean you can't invoke that as a reason for smacking being wrong.

I have no intention of smacking my children. My reason is that although I would hope to be as careful and judicious as my parents, it's too easy for children to copy this behaviour indiscriminately when dealing with other children, and they need to learn better ways of resolving disputes.

Phew, have written an essay. sorry!

The connection is soapbox, that when ds was 14 months old he never got a smack as he was a baby, my methods then were to constantly reassure, and i use to say quite firmly 'NO' if he was naughty, as he was my first i assumed his behavior was normal and i presumed he would get better as he got older! - he hasnt he is a very stubborn and tempramental child, I know how to reason with him as i have said many times - he gets warned and warned and most of the time he is sent to his room or a naughty corner i do not back down and i make sure he understands bad behavior is unacceptable, and if he STILL persists (which is rare) then he knows he will get a smacked bottom/hand and he does! that should in no way be made into something it is not - it is last resort discipline for a child, NOT uneccesary abuse of a poor innocent being, im sure my ds2 doesnt feel ds1 is innocent when he is having his face scratched and is being bitten!!!

I was smacked as a child too Welliemum, and just like you, i don't have any bad memories or resentment. When i was smacked it was becaus i had used up the 3 chances i had to stop being naughty and behave myself. DH was also smacked cos he was a nightmare child! I'm hoping our 10wk old ds doesn't take after him, but would not think twice about a smack if the situation was bad enough. I agree with all alternatives ie talking calmly etc which we will def try first. Sounds like lisalisa has her hands full with a large family already without having to deal with tantrums to that extent! I reckon you deserve a medal keeping your cool for as long as you did!!!!

I don't ever smack, my daughter has never needed it and she didn't have tantrums as a 5 year old.

I am interested that smacking seems to work for you, as often people smack and it doesn't work any more than shouting does!

It does seem to me that there is a lot of negotiation with your dd instead of just "I'm sorry, there is only 1 lolly so we are not having them today."

Do you make sure your dd doesn't get overtired or overstimulated? My dd's behaviour slips when she is tired/ overstimulated ie has watched a lot of TV/ hasn't eaten properly. So I put quite a lot of effort into managing these things and giving her positive attention.

All you none smacking mums, in the situation lisalisa described, what would you have done in her situation instead of smacking? it seems to me that smacking ended her daughters prolonged tantrum and aided some sort of treuse (sp?) what on earth is it specifically that is soooo bad about a smack in that situation (obviously there is nothing good or nice about it either!) but if its a means to an end then its a means to an end!!!

All you none smacking mums, in the situation lisalisa described, what would you have done in her situation instead of smacking? it seems to me that smacking ended her daughters prolonged tantrum and aided some sort of treuse (sp?) what on earth is it specifically that is soooo bad about a smack in that situation (obviously there is nothing good or nice about it either!) but if its a means to an end then its a means to an end!!!

As I have said before people just need to have confidence in their parenting methods. I will smack ds if I feel he needs it and could not give a toss what any other person thinks as it is my decision to make.

Parents who choose not to smack do so because it is their own child and their choice and what they feel is best. Some parents refuse to disapline at all and again that is their choice.

This thread could go on forever and ever, we will all think that we are right and the others are wrong and some people will even feel that they are superior because of their choice but the bottom line is your not, you are just another parent muddling through trying to do what you think is right and in 20 years time their will be women on the internet talking about how shocked they are at how their Mums bought them up.

I agreed with Enid's answer to that question (several days ago )

I would have responded with calm, not anger, and would have ignored the screaming, helped the child out of swimsuit and given a cuddle until the child calmed down.

Fighting fire with fire always seems a bit counterproductive to me - fighting fire with water is a more sensible approach. Similarly responding to an angry aggressive child with anger/violence seems illogical.

I would just like to point out I wasn't smacked very often, actually. Which does not negate Scummy's analysis, but does probably make a slightly different point.

Oh and - since I seem, despite my better judgement, to have come back to this thread - the other main reason I don't hit/smack my children is that unlike many of you lot I am, fundamentally, a fairly crap parent. If I broached the line of smacking them I'd hit them because I was tired, worn down, and fed up - which is often. I bite back those tendencies to shout unforgiveable things which surge up like vomit all too frequently. I really cannot risk smacking them. I find parenthood tough enough, even with that barrier in place.

MotherInferior, you are absolutely not a fairly crap parent. Why on earth do you think that?

Helenemjay - there have been any number of posts from non-smacking mums on this thread saying what they would have done in lkisalisa's situation (which was, after all, the question she asked). Read the early part of the thread.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to tell you what helps me. I have a fairly short fuse but there is one bit of philosophy which makes sense in my life: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I don't want anyone to hit me or lock me in a room - nor do I want to know that I have taught anyone that this is a reasonable response to a situation.

You say your daughter spoke to you without respect. Is hitting a tired, frustrated child the best way to teach respect for others?

lisalisa , Not sure if you actually saw my first answer in the midlle of all of us arguing on whetehre we should or shouldn't smack and so on.

I would like to point you to a book 'Parenting the strong willed child. It's a brilliant 5 week approach based on techniques that, I am sure, you have heard about - attending, praising, ignoring, giving directions and time out. It's nice because everythng is broken down in small steps so it is manageable. Also it gives you indications on why some parenting methods that should be working are not. Always nice to now when you actually don't things totaly right - I had quite a few of them when I actually though I was doing well
I remembre the time when I though that if I was giving just half an inch to DS1, he would have eaten me alive !!! Parenting a v strong willed child IS hard work. I hope that between our phylosophical discussion on smacking, you have found some help!

A friend of mine relates how, in the middle of a three year old's tantrum, she picked up the phone and said "Hello? Is that Father Christmas....?" Can you imagine the little one's panic when faced with the prospect of having her behaviour reported directly to Santa? I'm still waiting for a chance to use this one

Motherinferior, I agree with Mercy. No way are you are a crap parent! What's all that about? I think you need your Sunday evening wine fix - I'm having mine now in fact.

At the risk of causing a riot, I do think that there is also a level of behaviour that some parents will accept and others will not, and that has a relation to whether parents smack or not.

Non smackers 'put up' with a level of behaviour that I personally would not. My own belief is that we all perhaps end up with children who behave (possibly) but some of us achieve it more quickly.

I know many of you will throw up your hands in horror. I have not smacked any of my children for a number of years because there has been no need. There are somany othersanctions I could use if necessary but I don't even need them.

Is smacking realted to how much bad behaviour a parent can tolerate? I have seen some children put their parents through hoops when a smack would have put an end to it.

I'm very strict and I'm very much the boss - but I don't smack children on principle. I wouldn't do it in any circumstance at all.

MI, you are SO not a rubbish parent. You only have to look at those gorgeous girls of yours to see what a great job you are doing.