OK - all you non smackers - what would you do instead then?

[lisalisa]

Message withdrawn

I have just been reading the unconditional parenting website (Alfie Kohn), what a frightening web-space. People saying it's ok if a child watches 7 hours of TV a day for a year or longer , or advising that a woman who is working until 2am every night to make ends meet should "think harder about what she really wants" or get a babysitter in (if she could afford that I don't think she'd be working until 2am, do you?) so that she can get some daytime naps, rather than just insist that her daughter wears pull-ups at night so that she can get more than 2.5 hours sleep. Or criticism of a parent who's bored to tears at the park and would like to go home now please. Convenient to the parent is like a set of 4-letter words on there. I don't know HOW in the world you're supposed to juggle the opposing demands of multiple children at once in this weird parenting philosophy, either.

Nightmare!! I was thinking about buying one of the books, but no thanks!

Flack, that's a public forum you're linking to, just like this one, not material written by Alfie Kohn. Would you refuse to buy the Mumsnet books, because you'd read something by a poster on this site that you didn't like?

lisalisa

not read any of the posts other than yours because i know you will be frowned upon for smacking....

i agree with smacking actually, as long as it is done without anger and force. My parents smacked me, and by god did i need it sometimes! maybe i am a rare case but smacking certaily never taught me that violence is the way to get results, i respected my parents and still do of the way they brought us five children up. Lisalisa in you particular situation above, the only thing i would add is perhaps you are trying too many ways of dealing with the tantrums and DD is getting confused, maybe stick with one method of dicipline and be consistent, even if it doesnt appear to be working, stick with it, be firm and show you will not back down, hopefully you will start to see results. also if you are happy with how you raise your children dont listen to what others who know nothing of you and your situation say, there will always be people that disagree with you and go past the realms of just disagreeing, they try to make you feel like a bad mother. Personally i think those kind of women have issues themselves but that could be a whole other thread!

In my eyes, smacking is not illegal like most people think these days and it was actually the MPs that contested against having it made a law. until it becomes against the law, if, indeed it ever does, in my opinion it is just another method available to parents to discipline their children, and if some dont like that well, its nothing to do with them... Children, IMO are not public property as a lot of people seem to think, they have two parents (sometimes!) and it is down to those parents and those parents alone to decide how they wish to bring their children up.

blah blah blah, hope that makes sense!

Scummy, you said this about smacking: "But I can't think that many people hold it against their parents unless said parents are fundamentally unpleasant. Which I am sure is not the case with anyone here."

I agree that smacking does not inevitably lead to a bad relationship with one's parents. You are a good example of that. But ... there is always that risk.

In lisalisa's case, you are dealing with a strong-willed child. I can identify with that both in relation to myself as well as my dd. My father slapped me once in my life - I would never forgive. My mother caned me and siblings regularly. It is the insult to my physical integrity and the imbalance of power between them and me was particularly insulting. Perhaps if I was laidback like you, it would not have mattered so deeply. But as it is, a lot of my childhood involved plotting how to get away from under my parents' roof.

Make no mistake, my parents provided beautifully for my food, clothes, accommodation, education. They could not do enough. But emotionally, they did not know how to provide sufficient support and guidance for a fiery emotional child like me. The physical punishment tipped the scale.

blueshoes I agree that in a situation like yours, the smacking tipped the scale.

But the smacking alone is unlikely to be a source of emotional estrangement. People who tend to be estranged from their parents are estranged because their parents failed to provide an emotionally satisfactory relationship as well - the smacking was just one of the elements of that. If everything else emotionally is OK, I very much doubt if smacking alone would disrupt a good parent child relationship.

Cali, you have a point there. My dh was smacked as a child but has a great relationship with his parents, primarily because his mother provided the emotional ballast and made a happy family. He still does not like the smacks, though!

Everyone is always shocked when I type that my BIL ended up punching his daughter. My own Mother used to grab whatever came to hand to hit usually my older sister (coincidence that it is same sister who slapped her own DD so much). My DP had a father who was also keen to use the belt and any thing else he could get his hands on so you can see why we don't ever smack. We have seen the bad place it can lead to. DP's relationship with his Dad is non existent.

Disciplining without smacking is hard hard work and you have to be sooo consistent and always follow through threats or they loose their value.

I have been close to smacking but I find putting DS on the naughty step gives us both time to clam down.

smacking is weird IMO

odd to react to any situation with violence

i am SOOOO not getting involved with this discusssion.

but wold just like to say LL i think you are incredibly barve to come on and say what you said. i would find nothing you did in that situation a cause for concern and i am of the opinion "if it works for you.."

am also quite surprised at how many of you admit to smacking.
thats not a judgment in any way!!! i just thought that the way MN is so highly strung over food isues or wearing the right clothes etc, smacking would be a big no no.

as i say, observation not judgment

I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if things have progressed.

But when dd1 was about 20 months she threw her first most spectacular tantrum...I was extremely heavily pg and unable to deal with it. So I left the tnatruming child upstairs with all baby gates closed, and nothing within reach with which she could hurt herself.
I then sat downstairs and cried my eyes out dp was at work doing night shifts and I felt I couldn't take it. She must have screamed for at least a half an hour with intervals (but everytime I thought she'd stopped and made to go up she'd begin again), in the end she stopped completely and called down to me so I went up, she cuddled me and told me she loved me (I didn't feel very loving towards her after the operatic performance she'd just rendered but thats another story).
Strangely she's never done it since, if she tantrums or looks like she will begin I tell her she's going into her room and not coming out till she stops completely, we have baby gates in place to stop her from coming out. So she doesn't do it.

Many sympathies though....

I think the consensus generally is that it's a big no no. But for me (and JanH and mears I expect)it's something that was more generally acceptable when our children were small, as we are mmm, how shall I put this?........ older mums. Things change, like weaning at 16 weeks, or less. Did that too

Most parents who smack only do it rarely, they aren't all strap wielding dictators. It's most often followed by a cuddle and an explanation and a dreadful feeling of remorse (for the parent).

I have to say though that I would have loved someone to come and show me how to put my ds2 on the naughty step and keep him there. Not possible - unless I physically held him down and I'm not sure that that is any better than a smack.

lisalisa , first I would like to say that you have had a lot of courage to start tis thread. It was bound to have people reacting strongly AND be v judgemental. So good on you it only shows how much you actually care about your dd.
I would like to point you to a book 'Parenting the strong willed child. It's a brilliant 5 week approach based on techniques that, I am sure, you have heard about - attending, praising, ignoring, giving directions and time out. It's nice because everythng is broken down in small steps so it is manageable.
Also, I would agree with fuzzywuzzy. If you put your dd in time out, she needs to stay there until she calms down. Nauhty step wouldn't work for me, so DS1is going in the entrance. There is a door at the end so I can lean on it, turning my back to him if need be, until he stops. Which can take some times ... She needs to learn her own method to calm herself down but it will take a bit of time.
Also remenber that you have a baby. It must have had some effect on your dd and make you more tired ie less able to react calmly. That's normal and it will settle down within the first year of the baby.
Good luck, dealing with a strong willed child - also called the difficult child- is not easy thing but you are doing everything youcan to give her the best parenting. That's what matters in the end.

Id just like to add that i have a 5 almost 6 year old ds and he is extremely strong willed and stubborn, there isnt a chance in hell that he could, would or has ever even slightly responded to time-outs and naughty steps and 'talking' it through - im sorry but i do feel very strongly about all this no smacking stuff - its all got so blown out of proportion its laughable, why do people have to blur the lines between smacking is like some form of GBH from smacking is sometimes a crucial and neccessary means to an end!! no i wouldnt just walk up to someone in the street and just smack them, nor would i do my dp, friend, sister etc etc BUT if they were layed on the floor kicking me, biting me pulling my hair and screaming rage in my face then yeah your damn right, id slap em! MY children are loved and well cared for, to some peoples opinions they are spoilt rotten and thay barely want for nothing, but they know that they will only get two chances to stop screaming/yelling/smacking me or another person/child, whatever it is that they are doing thats bad i tell them once, then twice if i have to tell them 3 times i smack they're hand/bottom if it persists i do it again and they go to bed/naughty corner/chair i only ever really have to do this occasionally with ds1 as he is trouble on legs, ds2 is a monkey but he knows when too much is too much, dd isnt old enough yet to try it on too much, but the rules will be the same for all 3 of them, it may well have been said a million times that "i used to get smacked and it never hurt me" but it IS true, and i love and respect my mum completely, we are very close! i love my kids more than anything, and i believe they find security in having secure and firm boudries and rules to which they know will never change no matter what, and if they try to push them there will be no give at all! I may well get some abuse for this but i really dont care, my kids are fab i can take them out and i can rely on them to be good and well behaved most of the time - they are 6, 3.5, and dd is 10 months, as opposed to my sisters kids who scream and yell and throw themselves on the floor and wreak havoc - she has the no smacking and talking calmly method! sorry but its crap!!

I was smacked and I will smack if its needed, that is my choice and no one elses. I have an amazing relationship with my parents as do all 7 of their children and beeing smacked has in no way had a negative effect on any of us.

I would speculate that where smacking has caused problems their would always be other reasons behind this but smacking is the one that is out their and easy to blame.

and all this "but would you hit an adult like that" rubbish must stop because no I wouldn't but then I wouldn't put an adult on a naughty step or lock them in a bedroom/garden until they behaved.

Amen flutterbee!!!

No, I wouldn't put an adult on a naughty step, but the point about smacking is that it is a physical attack which is, legally, only permissable because of the Victorian (and undefined) qualification of 'reasonable chastisement': in any other, non-parental, context, it qualifies as assault.

But the main reason I don't smack is that my parents did it, not particularly hard, but I'll never ever forgive them for it.

its still weird though

motherinferior - you will never ever forgive them!!! - for smacking you?? why??

cos its horrible

sorry will parp myself now

Because it hurt!

Well obviously it hurts! but to say you will never ever forgive them for it seems abit extreme!

Oddly enough, I'm not good with people who deliberately hurt me.

But this is not helping with the original discussion, and it's not helping the OP, and is probably quite specific to my individual case and parents, and overall I too am off out of this thread.

My parents hit me too, and yes i suppose at the time i hated them and was sure i would never forgive them too - only i grew up and the truth is i remember doing some really naughty stuff and getting my backside leathered for it and i have to say i think i deserved every last inch! Your parents smacking you because you have been very naughty/uncontrollable is FAR different to just having 'someone' smack you! My mum would be quite upset if she thought i wouldnt forgive her because she smacked me when i was younger!