Explaining god - advice needed by non-religious parents

[BadHair]

Ds1 has developed a fascination for churches. He knows the names of all the churches for miles around and can tell you if they have spires, clocks, towers etc. Although I find this a bit strange, as we're not a religious family by any stretch of the imagination, I also think its quite sweet.
However, he's started to ask what churches are, and who lives in them. I've told him that no-one lives in them and that they're places where some people like to go to sing hymns and say prayers, and so far he's happy with that. But its only a matter of time before he asks what hymns and prayers are.
So, how on earth do atheist parents give a simple explanation of god etc to a 3 yr old in a balanced, sensible fashion?

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Why on earth is it odd to try to do for others what they would like rather than what you would like?? It seems to me the very essence of empathy. It's the difference between being given your favourite perfume for Christmas and being given a tool kit (to be sexist for a moment). "Do as you would be done to" is the approach taken by those who say, "well, I don't know why you are complaining, it wouldn't bother me...". Not very empathetic.

Your statement: "I'm intrigued by what atheists teach their children about good and evil or right and wrong. Is that something you believe in or is it just don't get caught/ enjoy live as much as you can without regard for others?" is, to me, extxremely offensive. You know perfectly well that non religious parents are not like this so must have posted it to have a pop.

Bloss, well, no, it isn't because I think so (though clearly that comes into the detail, that's what parenting is about) but the essence of morality is a/what is good for the other person, which you discern using empathy, which is a natural, normal and near-universal part of human emotion (hence the two year olds who are distressed when another child cries) and the rules that we - in general - agree to conform to because we recognise they make our lives safer and happier. I actually personally think that the cannibalism thing falls into the second category - of things that affect us as a society. While I think doctors who agree to give a dose of morphine to a terminal patient who is dying in agony and wants their passing to be eased falls into the first category.

No, I don't believe in any god. As I said, empathy is part of human nature - not baby nature, but develops as the brain grows. Those without it are extremely unusual - freakish even - or have a damaged brain. For me, it is the root of all morality.
Bloss, do you not think it is, of itself, divisive for some children to think they are going to heaven and that their peers won't either for lack of faith or a different faith. I do.

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Actually, Bloss, I do think that much morality is innate - the desire to care for the weak, for our children, for other people's children etc etc. Empathy is natural and near universal. Of course not all people agree with the precise definition of good or bad behaviour, but that's true even among religious people - some think that polygamy, stoning of adulterers etc etc is moral. There is little consensus on what even God thinks is good and bad apart from the same stuff that non-religious people agree is good/bad - eg nurturing a baby = good, murder = bad. There's an awful lot in the Bible that doesn't fit into the God is Love model - eg threatening your only son with having his throat cut in order to please go (Isaac and Abraham). I doubt that anyone's morality would consider that a 'good' thing to do - or am I wrong.

Batter - tree worship has a long and distinguished history, I believe I think your dd is a pagan!

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Very late comer to the discussion - but been following with interest. I have no religious beliefs of any type - in fact I have an almost illogical distrust of religon and those who do hold strong beliefs. The whole concept make my blood run cold. And as such Bloss, if I have understood correctly, I find your comment below most offensive....

"On the Christian view, some people climb into the lifeboat and some people don't. That doesn't make them better swimmers... But the people in the lifeboat do have a better outcome in the end."

Are you suggesting that as a non-Christian I am likely to be disadvantaged? Can you please explain further what you mean by this?

I am a Christian but DH is most definitely not - although respects me going to church occasionally and never belittles my thoughts and ideas. My DD is obsessed with churches and loves coming with me to see inside the building and play with the other children - mainly a novelty factor at this stage (3 this summer). Although Christian, I have always been open to other faiths and ideologies, have spent a lot of time studying Buddhism and find many of their ideas very attractive and applicable to everyday life.
So far we have got away with discussing religion and answering her questions by saying "the people who go to church believe that...." and "some people don?t go to church because they are too busy, some because they don?t want to and others because they believe in other things". Rather vague and noncommitta, I know, but it is working so far. I am hoping that trying to put across Christian beliefs as objectively as possible and not telling her that those beliefs are absolute fact but things that people believe in, I hope that when she is old enough she can learn more, understand more and be able to make an informed decision whether or not to believe in those ideas for herself. It was hard work but I think we have explained the concept of belief and fact to her - that has been the hardest part for us.
Later on, when she is a bit bigger, I am keen to take her into a few different religious environments (Buddhist Temple among others) to see for herself and learn to be open minded and respectful of other?s beliefs regardless of her own - I think knowledge and respect is about all we can hope to teach them, whether or not to believe is surely up to them.
Interesting thread, nice to see that we aren?t the only ones who have struggles with this topic.

I've not posted on this thread yet as I always try to avoid religious debate, but I can't help myself this time! My parents are both 'belivers' but never practised and I never went to church as a child (except weddings etc)now as an adult I do not believe in God, nor does my dh. My ds is only 22 months so I'm sure we will have to tackle 'God' questions in time. However, like Aloha, I am insulted to hear that some Christians wonder how I would teach my child the difference between right and wrong. My son will know how to behave towards others as I will teach him love, empathy and compassion. I do not need a supposed superior figure to set the rules in our lives, we can do this for ourselves.

Sorry, just one more point - we keep discussions of good/bad and morality well away from any discussion about God or religion. Personally, I think it is just asking for trouble if you link these ideas too much in talking to young children. There is so much potential for a child (who is not going to be able to see the complexities clearly enough) to start drawing innacurate black and white conclusions such as "Christians are all good because they believe in God and everyone else is bad...."

As for better outcomes such as the lifeboat analogy that Bloss drew...hmmm. I am not wanting a fight about it, but I would be very upset if my children really thought like that. There is something rather superior, exclusive and dismissive of other?s beliefs in that way of thinking that I find most worrying. However strong my own beliefs are, I also believe it would be very wrong - and go as far as to say unchristian of me - if I started to believe in such a stark one track way as that. If I have misinterpreted you, Bloss, then I am sorry. Just commenting on what I have read and believe to understand.

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LOL Twiglett!

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'Look to your own fate first, before worrying about everyone else's. '

This 'I'm alright Jack' attitude doesn't sound very Christian to me!

And while we're on this subject, I'd be very interested to hear a Christian's view of heaven.

Bloss - thank you for taking the time to respond in such great detail. I continue however to find the explanations and rationale offensive and patronising but understand than when someone holds such strong beliefs (as you obvioulsy do)it is difficult to be aware of how something you hold dear without question can't be taken on board by others. I was tempted to use the word 'understood' there but refrained because I do understand your stance - but believe strongly it is illogical and has no basis in fact.

I will swim along merrily to my awful fate and you can wave from the lifeboat.

There's nothing irrational about empathy or making rules for a society that makes its members safer and happier. Empathy is part of a human being's development - like learning to walk - it emerges in a specific part of the brain (this is scientific fact btw) at a certain point in a child's development. Some people suffer brain damage and cannot feel it. It's like eyesight in a way. Someone posted about their child suddenly becoming distressed when another child cried - that's empathy - the ability to understand another's pain. It's what morality is based on IMO - the understanding that others feel pain and unhappiness, that this is unpleasant, and therefore unkind to inflict it upon them by our behaviour. Some people take less notice of this inner prompting than others, hence we have the back up of rules and laws. Yes, atheists have differences of opinion, but it's also certainly not true to say that religious people or even all Christians have the same view of what is right and what is wrong (gay priests, anyone?) despite their hotline to the deity! And as I said, the Bible is full of Godly people (and God himself) doing dreadful things to each other also indicates that Christian morality is a bit of moveable feast. I am sure you try to lead a good life and not to hurt others and so do I - though the details of our morality probably differ!

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Bloss, slightly off-topic, but I remember having a really good discussion with you on a thread last year. We disagreed about those who don't come to Jesus (eg the devout muslim granny, etc) not being able to enter the kingdom of heaven. You gave a brilliant, unforgettable analogy of Jesus as sitting in a lifeboat and offering his hand to drowning people. If they didn't take his hand, it was then their funeral, as it were. I've since had another thought. What if the muslim granny (et al) can't see Jesus in that lifeboat, because their religion has told them to ignore him? He doesn't look like a lifeboat to them - he looks like a ghost. My point is that I believe everyone is saved, regardless, it's just that some take longer than others to evolve, for want of a better word. (sorry, long).

Sorry, should have read the whole thread before I posted. Bit manic today. Supposed to be working, don'tchaknow.

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