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Original poster

Explaining god - advice needed by non-religious parents

274 replies

BadHair · 18/02/2004 23:20

Ds1 has developed a fascination for churches. He knows the names of all the churches for miles around and can tell you if they have spires, clocks, towers etc. Although I find this a bit strange, as we're not a religious family by any stretch of the imagination, I also think its quite sweet.
However, he's started to ask what churches are, and who lives in them. I've told him that no-one lives in them and that they're places where some people like to go to sing hymns and say prayers, and so far he's happy with that. But its only a matter of time before he asks what hymns and prayers are.
So, how on earth do atheist parents give a simple explanation of god etc to a 3 yr old in a balanced, sensible fashion?

OP posts:
Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 12:25

It's a bit like what I mean Tinker, but mine feels stronger and I don't get another view on things, as you describe. I talk to myself when I want that, LOL! No, the only way to describe it is as a presence.

One thing that still puzzles me is that I have a few (charismatic) Christian friends who say they get very clear answers from God, but they can't describe what form the communication takes.

slug · 27/02/2004 13:19

Bloss, I don't think you DO have to accept that there is such a thing as truth, just different ways of explaining the world we see. If that was the case, most of quantum physics would not exist. (Try explaining Heisenburg's uncertaintity theory!) You prefer to think of it as being guided by some supernatural power with a personal interest in every person's life, though not enough interest to activily do something about it. And I prefer to look for explanations elsewhere. I accept that there are some things that science cannot answer, but science 200 years ago could not explain that which is accepted now. It does not bother me to live in a world without something concrete to tie my world view to. I don't feel the need to go looking for an individual god to answer my personal prayers. I can't help but think that that approach is very arrogant and self centered.

Droile, there have been some very interesting studies recently looking into how stimulation of the temporal lobes can produce a feeling of "presence". How you interpret this is dependant on your beliefs and cultural background. Apparantly though, not all people have the sort of brain that is susceptable to this sort of stimulation. I remember seeing a video clip of Richard Dwarkins trying it out. He was really looking forward to experiencing the presence and was very disappointed when it didn't happen to him.

It's an interesting thought though. If god does exist, why does he created a subset of humans who are physically incapable of having a religious experience? How does that tally with an all loving god who only wants the best for his children?

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 13:25

I know Slug, it's a puzzle.
I'm probably just bonkers, I think that's the most scientific explanation, and one that DH could certainly relate to, LOL.

I'm impressed by people who don't feel a presence and yet still get something out of the bible. That must really take some doing.

I'd still like to know what form the guidance takes, for those who feel that they have been guided. Anyone?

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 13:29

Incidentally, William James, Neitzche, et al (never could spell him) had some interesting stuff to say about truth, including 'we must live today by that truth which we can find today' (roughly) and that truth is MADE. But perhaps we'd better not go there.....

Galaxy · 27/02/2004 13:40

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slug · 27/02/2004 13:52

Galaxy. I too am cursed with a scientist husband. Does yours shout at pseudo science on the TV too?

Galaxy · 27/02/2004 13:59

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expatkat · 27/02/2004 14:03

I'm so envious, Galaxy, I've always wanted a physicist dh. I'd even settle for a FRIEND who's a physicist. [Digression now concluded.]

Jimjams · 27/02/2004 14:04

bloss there was something on Radio 2 this week saying that the church puts people of Christianity- and I think its true. The village I grew up in had a very welcoming church- the most welcoming I've been in. They possibly would cope with my son. The problem for me is thatI have met so many so called Christians who have been such horribly unpleasant people- petty, small minded and just a little bit self righteous! Not fair to judge everyone that way but if someone says they're a christian I'm afraid it tends to put me off them as I assume they will be very judegmental. Absolutely none of my friends are Christians - although a number have rejected the church. Actually that's wrong I can think of one believer but he never goes to church.

Galaxy- much as I like to try and believe in an afterlife I'm afraid I think its curtains. Anyone read Red Dwarf- and silicon heaven?

Galaxy · 27/02/2004 14:25

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Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 15:22

Talking of the Matrix, I think that film is a powerful argument for the benefits of the world being exactly like it is, with free will and disasters, etc, and that we would hate it if there was a puppet-master interfering all the time.

StripyMouse · 27/02/2004 17:50

A couple of you talk about prayer and having them answered. Even as a Christian I just can?t get my head around the concept of prayer.
If God is the seeing all, understanding all One with the power to do everything and anything, then our prayers and "petitions" all seem a bit pointless really. Afterall, if "he" only did soemthing because we asked him, that seems somewhat out of sync with the concept of a fair and righteous God. I understand that by praying we can come to better understanding and the communion with God part of prayer, but it is the directly asking for God?s intervention side of prayer that I find really tricky.
I will try to explain with a little example..If there iare 2 women in hospital sick - one has family and friends praying for her to get better, the other one has no-one and is too sick/chooses not to pray for herself, would God really only intervene/help/support/heal the one with active prayers? Would he only do this if the sufferer is a CofE Christian and receiving prayers??

If "he" can intervene and has the ability/desire to be involved in an active role as part of our lives, then I truly believe that "my God" wouldn?t treat one differently from the other in this situation. So, then, where is the value of prayer? Is it just there to make us feel better? To help focus and think through issues for ourselves? To gain our own inner comfort to deal with situations? Or can prayer really make a difference to real everyday situations such as life or death/suffering/pain etc.? Everytime I think about this I come up with more questions and problems than I do solutions and more understanding. Talking to my minister didn?t help - he admitted that he had few answers other than to say that prayer was worth it if it provided comfort/acceptance/understanding to those suffering. Surely though, this comfort/acceptance and understanding is gained by those doing the praying, not those unknowingly being the "target" of the prayer. I am stopping now as writing this is just confusing me more.

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 18:07

I agree stripeymouse, it does seem pointless, for all the reasons you give. It's just that, for some reason, sometimes it seems to work!
Maybe it's not God. Maybe the miracles are worked by our own as yet unexplained powers. Maybe it's a servant of God doing their stuff. Maybe going through the ritual of prayer unleashes some weird power. And maybe it's just a coincidence.

JJ · 27/02/2004 18:15

I always thought of it as saying "please". It's polite and asks for what you want directly. Also, isn't most prayer supposed to be praise and thanksgiving? So I guess there's that to consider also.

Just so you know, these are my first thoughts -- I was reared Christian but stopped going to church because of my church. I can't defend what I've written at all, because I'm not sure I believe it. Hope that makes sense. It's an interesting discussion. My husband's been reading it also. (His username is "flubus" btw, just so you know who he is if he posts.)

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 22:07

Sorry Badhair, helluva hijack!

SueW · 27/02/2004 23:10

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

bloss · 28/02/2004 07:20

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bloss · 28/02/2004 10:16

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Tinker · 28/02/2004 10:59

Bloss - you may be interested in, or already know about, this. The programme was broadast last year on the BBC Does Prayer Work?

bloss · 28/02/2004 11:10

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Tinker · 28/02/2004 11:20

It was quite an interesting programme but flawed, I think. Those conducting the experiment were believers and were disappointed with the outcome. However, of those being prayed for, many were believers anyway and so knew that a) family would be praying for them and b) woudl be praying themsleves so not quite a blind experiment. Interstingly, the more fundamentalist Christians in the States didn't think the Muslims were as worthy of prayer as the Christians, IIRC! Perhaps the best experiment would be to pray for confirmed atheists.

robinw · 28/02/2004 12:27

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eddm · 28/02/2004 13:18

The idea of praying for committed atheists is a bit intrusive and rude, I think. I discovered that my late step-grandfather, a strong Catholic who I disliked, was praying for me because I was living with my then boyfriend (now husband) and was really offended (and amused, TBH).

Tinker · 28/02/2004 18:18

These lyrics seem pretty apposite for this thread

God's Song by Randy Newman

Cain slew Abel Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:

"Man means nothing he means less to me
than the lowiliest cactus flower
or the humblest yucca tree
he chases round this desert
cause he thinks that's where I'll be
that's why I love mankind

I recoil in horror from the foulness of thee
from the squalor and the filth and the misery
How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
That's why I love mankind"

The Christians and the Jews were having a jamboree
The Buddhists and the Hindus joined on satellite TV
They picked their four greatest priests
And they began to speak
They said "Lord the plague is on the world
Lord no man is free
The temples that we built to you
Have tumbled into the sea
Lord, if you won't take care of us
Won't you please please let us be?"

And the Lord said
And the Lord said

"I burn down your cities--how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You must all be crazy to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me
That's why I love mankind"

twiglett · 28/02/2004 18:59

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