Explaining god - advice needed by non-religious parents

[BadHair]

Ds1 has developed a fascination for churches. He knows the names of all the churches for miles around and can tell you if they have spires, clocks, towers etc. Although I find this a bit strange, as we're not a religious family by any stretch of the imagination, I also think its quite sweet.
However, he's started to ask what churches are, and who lives in them. I've told him that no-one lives in them and that they're places where some people like to go to sing hymns and say prayers, and so far he's happy with that. But its only a matter of time before he asks what hymns and prayers are.
So, how on earth do atheist parents give a simple explanation of god etc to a 3 yr old in a balanced, sensible fashion?

I'd still like to know what form the guidance takes, for those who feel that they have been guided. Anyone?

I'm having to resort to repeating my questions.
I'll keep copying & pasting until I get some answers. If you don't know, that's fine. Just say so.

Bloss, I think morality is always a moveable feast - and very individual, and that is absolutely as true of religious morality as any other kind. Lots of religious people believe in the death penalty for example (despite Thou Shalt Not Kill) - whatever people's belief system there is always the individual element. 'Knowing' God makes you no more likely IMO to have a consistent conscience or morality than not 'knowing' God. I have no problems seeing morality emerging from a mixture of the near-universal inherent preference for making people happy rather than miserable (see my reference to studies showing people's brain pain centres lighting up when they were shown images of people being hurt or in distress) which is linked to the physical development of empathy (I don't think anyone could now argue that emotions were less concrete than organs, now we have some understanding of the chemicals that cause our feelings - eg serotonin) - with the addition of our intelligence mixed with our instinctive desire for self-preservation on an individual basis and on a group basis. We are intelligent enough to realise that a society where murder and theft are permitted then we (and our children) will be at constant risk so we reject that. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this really doesn't seem that complicated to me. Morality is often pragmatic, for both the religious and non-religious alike. Morality has often been immoral IMO because it emerged from the economic needs of that particular society - eg slavery. I obviously think my morality is right, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it, but I accept that my experiences in the future my well alter my views on morality.
BTW I'm not at all frightened by life just ending. I certainly don't want it to happen now but the concept doesn't scare me. when I had my son, I truly felt I had fulfilled my purpose on earth - to make more people! My idea of a truly terrifying concept is of an eternity of pain in which I, and the people I loved most, live on and suffer and cannot be together. Actually, I find the concept of living for all eternity pretty horrific!

I think your explanation of the origins of morality is spot on, Aloha.

It would certainly be awful to exist in this form for eternity. I think that if any of it is true, then we won't be living this kind of life at all, and our bodies, if we have them, will be very different.

Twigglett, I found the same thing happens with my Christian friends. It's constant reiteration. They just ignore the uncomfortable questions and skip back to reiteration. It may be that I am thick and just don't get it and although I may seem argumentative, I'm not really - I'd genuinely like to know. The trouble is, if there really is no answer to some of these important questions, then we may be in trouble, because their premises have been built on this stuff.

Thanks Tinker - great link about the TV programme.

Bloss - I must admit that I find your posts difficult to read too but not for the reasons that twiglett has stated. Just because I often log onto mumsnet as a relaxation activity and am frequently too knackered to concentrate as properly and read as carefully as I would like. I don?t always agree with what you write, but find it interesting as it frequently helps me to question my own ideas and thoughts - has to be a good thing!
I think you may have a valid point - I do view God in quite a "human" way (anthropomism at it?s finest) and so see his role as one of a loving father figure who wants us to feel loved and to be "safe". Afterall, why he allows suffering when it is undeserved has to be one of the biggest stumbling blocks to truly understanding God?s relationship with man. I can see how, as a parent, you sometimes have to allow your children to experience negative things and be a little hurt in order to learn but only in terms of licking a lemon - not running out in front of a bus! Yet, God allows so much worse to happen than this - and for what reasons? If God is capable of intervening then WHY ON EARTH DOESNT HE? What are we learning from all of these terrible things that could possibly make it all worth it? Surely there must be a reason for letting them happen. Surely God who is meant to be the purest form of Love has a fair and just reason for not intervening? It is a bitter pill to swallow for a bereaved parent to believe that God allowed their child to die because of some higher reason.
My minister once said that understanding God?s will is like successfully explaining the science behind the working of a space rocket to a mentally retarded bullfrog. There is the possibility that it just might well be beyond us. Why does that just seem like a cop out?

Stripey mouse, I heard some explanations in a philosophy lecture once that helped a bit with the suffering thing. It might come out a bit garbled, but here goes. If God intervened and stopped a bullet/stabbing every time, it would be impossible to hurt someone, so we would be unable to appreciate non-violence and kindness. (hmm, not a great one, that). Our bodies are soft and pliable so that we can do wonderful, creative things with them. Unfortunately, that also means they will be smashed to bits if we fall off a cliff, or there's an earthquake. A fast yacht can't be comfortable. If you want it fast, it has to be streamlined, so no comfy chairs on board -this is like a mathematical principle. So I suppose the world has to be like it is if you want free will. Once you start constant intervention, there can be no consequences of any action, and we become like puppets.

An alternative theory holds that God created the world, via the big bang, by exploding every single atom of himself into tiny pieces. Each piece is conscious and when the expansion reverses and the whole reforms, it will have the individual experience of each of those tiny pieces.

Yet another is that we are not God's children - we are his parents. He is evolving through us and will become God in the future. (Fay Weldon's, that one - off the wall or what?)

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I'd still like to know what form the guidance takes, for those who feel that they have been guided. Anyone?

Droile, I've lost track a bit of this thread, but there have been one or two occasions where I've felt definite guidance following prayer. Now I realise that it could be argued that this was my own subconscious sorting things out, but it didn't feel like that.

There was once when dh was very depressed and I prayed about it, in total despair myself, and suddenly realised what to say to him and how to help him, and it did work. Obviously not a 'miracle cure' but I felt new strength to help him, where I had felt total despair. I suppose that's a sort of guidance I've felt.

Bloss, I think that Randy Newman is Jewish....I'm happy to be corrected if someone knows better. Therefore it is unlikly that he would add the verse you suggest.

And I think that as a member of a religious group that has been persicuted for the last 2000 years by Christians he has a right to his opinion.

hmb - is father was Jewish but he's and atheist I belive. Was going to add teh same coment. I think Randy Newman is God but that's another thread

typos, argh!

That's interesting, Musica.

Incidentally, if this thread dies, it won't be for want of trying to ask the right questions. I think that it may turn out to be useless trying to apply deduction or induction to these matters, but I prefer to give it a good go. It may be that God, the universe, whatever, follows the vagaries of 'a relationship', in which case I guess we may as well try asking why our DHs do this, that and the other when they claim to love us!

Agreed that some forms of Judiesm wouldn't recognise him, and I'm also sure that he is non observant,but he was discriminated against as a child in the South for being a Jew, so I think he has some relevant points to make!

A weird co-incidence that happened to me after a prayer. I was carrying twins and had appalling (2nd trimester) sickness. I got to the stage where I couldn't stand up any more and asked God to take the sickness away. Within an hour, I had miscarried one twin and the sickness lessened.

And I'd bet next years wages that the people who told the young Randy that he couldn't enter the club ( because he was a Jew) would have identified themselves as God fearing Southern Christians

Droile - what do you think taht was, co-incidence? Sandy Toksvig said something on the God debate the other night about being lonely at an airport and praying for some comfort when she saw an old friend. She believed that was God's intervention!?!? What about all the other people who prayed for the same and didn't bump into an old friend?

Question marks are directed at ST not you Droile

It could well have been coincidence. My desperation could have been caused by a final surge of hormone pre-miscarriage, Tinker.

The Sandi T things is interesting. Trouble is, coincidence is always a possibility in all these things, however marvellous, so an atheist would never be convinced.

Going back to the morality question, a lecturer once said 'If a white bearded bloke suddenly appeared in the sky and shouted 'get down to Sainsburys and rob the place blind!' you'd know it wasn't God'. Discuss.

A common thought is that a miracle is not an event happening, it's when it happens - i.e. at exactly the right time. And if something is possible naturally, it's not to say it wasn't caused by God.

I agree with you musica. Couldn't find the right words, thanks.

Anyone read 'If nobody speaks of remarkable things?'
The miracle at the end is really nicely put - 'a change in the ordinary way of things' or something. I really liked that.