Explaining god - advice needed by non-religious parents

[BadHair]

Ds1 has developed a fascination for churches. He knows the names of all the churches for miles around and can tell you if they have spires, clocks, towers etc. Although I find this a bit strange, as we're not a religious family by any stretch of the imagination, I also think its quite sweet.
However, he's started to ask what churches are, and who lives in them. I've told him that no-one lives in them and that they're places where some people like to go to sing hymns and say prayers, and so far he's happy with that. But its only a matter of time before he asks what hymns and prayers are.
So, how on earth do atheist parents give a simple explanation of god etc to a 3 yr old in a balanced, sensible fashion?

I think its all very well to try to give them the opportunity to make their own choice but you must tell them what YOU believe at some stage. I also know nothing about the Bible, religious rituals or symbols. All I know I've learnt from Hollywood and have to ask my husband (who is Jewish, non practising) things like, "how many tablets did Moses have, one for each commandment or everything crammed on to a few - which all drives him mad! I couldn't join Brownies because I didn't know the Lord's Prayer (or the national anthem) but I always loved singing hymns and carols. I am not Christened although I'm over 40 and from a generation where that is quite unusual. None of it has ever been a handicap or an issue, just part of who I am.

I hope this help's:

Parents who tell their children that they can ask them about "anything" often change the subject when children ask about God. And they do ask.

"Who are God's parents?" "If God is so powerful, why doesn't God stop bad things from happening?" "Does God hear my prayers?"

The questions are legion. In essence, they are the same questions that parents ask, although in another form. But they are questions we must address. After all, who among us is satisfied to give our children an intellectual, but not a spiritual education?

Our answers to these questions guide our children's view of the universe. What do we wish them to believe -- that they are accidents of ancient chemistry or sparks of the divine? Whatever one's philosophy on these matters, we owe our children an honest and searching discussion.

Talking to children about God is a key component of their sense of self. Children are taught that they are important -- but why are they important? Ask your children why they matter.

Do you really want your child's self-esteem to be based on your emotional constitution? Is there no unvarying basis for self-worth?

If I am important because my parents love me, what does that teach me about the child whose parents do not love him, or who has no parents?

1. Ask. Studies show that almost all children by the age of 6 have some developed concept of God. Ask them. Do not allow your own preconceptions to determine the range of their curiosity -- let them think, speculate, dream, imagine. Children will grow in their understanding, but only if we do not cut off conversation by dictating the "truth" or by evading the issue.

2. Tell stories. Stories encourage children to form concepts of character. To learn about God, tell the stories of the Bible, the midrashic or teaching legends, incidents from your own life. Children are less adept at manipulating abstract concepts than they are at understanding concrete operational ideas.

3. Do not be defensive at challenges. Thoughtful children especially once they enter into adolescence will challenge religious ideas. That is a sign of thoughtfulness. When we are angry or defensive we show our own insecurities, our unease with the religious ideas we profess. Welcome the challenge -- recognize that there are many good reasons to doubt God's existence or benevolence. Engage in a dialogue, not a diatribe.

4. Learn good answers. There are no definitive answers to difficult questions, but there are good ones. Try not to fall into the trap of giving facile answers that may satisfy a 6-year-old, but will be transparently unacceptable when the child is older and more sophisticated. It is better not to be understood yet than to misrepresent the complexity of the issues. Still, in many cases hard questions can be addressed very early: "If God dwells everywhere, is God in my pocket?" The appropriate answer to this is to explain the difference between physical and non-physical objects. The wind is invisible, but physical. Love is intangible. Ask a child "where is love?" You cannot point to it, but you can feel it.

Ideas of God will always vary; our task is to struggle, to care.

Our aim is not answers but spiritual growth. Allow yourself to be open to the directions that spiritual exploration can take you. Once again, as so often, through teaching our children, we learn

Mothernature, you certainly live up to your name! I couldn't disagree with you more when you say "Talking to children about God is a key component of their sense of self" - children who are not talked to about God can still have a good and valid sense of self. Some of your ideas are good but I don't see why "God" has to be a key factor in them at all!

Pherhaps this one will say it better..

The Story of God: Explaining God to Children
By Valinda Hunter

July 4, 2001

Long, long ago people did not understand many of the things that they saw around them. They saw lightning in the sky and heard thunder and they did not understand what caused lightning and thunder. They were frightened because they did not understand lightning and thunder.

They saw the seasons change from warm summertime to cold wintertime and back again to warm summertime. They did not understand why the warm weather turned cold. They were frightened because they did not understand the changes in the seasons. Sometimes they were afraid that it would turn cold and stay cold forever and never get warm again and all the plants would die and the people and animals would not have any food.

They saw stars and planets and comets and meteors in the night sky and they did not understand these lights in the night sky. They were frightened because they did not understand these lights in the night sky.

Sometimes there were floods and the water would cover all the dry land that they could see. They did not understand what caused the floods and they were frightened that they would be carried away by the water.

Sometimes they felt earthquakes. Sometimes they saw volcanoes spew forth smoke and ashes and hot burning rocks. They did not understand what caused earthquakes and volcanoes and they were very frightened.

Sometimes they got sick or saw other people get sick. They did not understand why people get sick and they were very afraid.

Because they did not understand what caused lightning or thunder or floods or earthquakes or sickness or these other things, they thought these things must be caused by very powerful super-humans. They thought these super-humans must be very powerful to be able to do all of these things. They were afraid of the super-humans that they imagined but they wanted to get to know them better. The people of long ago thought they could make friends with the super-humans and then the super-humans would take care of the people and not hurt them with their great powers. The people of long ago thought that the super-humans could stop all of the bad things like floods and earthquakes and sickness from happening.

But the people did not know how to make friends with the imaginary super-humans. They made guesses at what they thought the super-humans would like because they knew what they themselves liked. The people liked good food and pretty things so they thought the super-humans would like good food and pretty things too. Sometimes they built special tables called altars for the things they wanted to give as gifts to the super-humans. Sometimes they would take the food and pretty things and throw them in the volcanoes or other places where they thought the super-humans lived. They thought that doing these things would make the super-humans happy.

The people kept trying to make friends with the super-humans by offering gifts and the people called out to the super-humans to hear them and to help them but the super-humans were not real. The super-humans were only make-believe. The super-humans were only characters in stories that people told each other.

But many people still thought that the super-humans were real and that they were not answering because the people were not doing the right things to make the super-humans happy. Many people came up with their own ideas about what would make the super-humans happy. Different people had different ideas about who the super-humans were and had different names for the super-humans. The people thought the super-humans were like the men and women they knew and gave them names like Jupiter, Zeus, Jesus, God, Christ, Isis, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, Saturn, Venus, Mars, Thor, Woden or Odin, Frigga, or Mary.

We can still see the names of some of these super-humans all around us. The month of January was named for Janus, the Roman super-human who governed doors and gates and all beginnings. The month of March was named for Mars, the Roman super-human of war. The day Wednesday was named for Woden's Day or Odin's Day, the Norse supreme super-human. The day Thursday was named for Thor's Day, Thor was the name the Norse people gave the super-human who they thought made thunder. The day Friday was named for Frigga, the Norse super-human of love and home. The day Saturday was named for Saturn's Day, Saturn was the name the Romans gave their super-human of agriculture and also one of the lights in the night sky. The holiday of Easter was named for Eastre or Ostara or Astarte, who was named by many people as the super-human of springtime. The holiday of Christmas was named for Christ, one of the popular super-humans in the Western world today.

Many people were very afraid of making the super-humans angry with them. They were afraid that the super-humans would do bad things to them or not help them when they were sick or in trouble. They argued over which of the super-humans was the most powerful and which was the best to have as a friend.

The people argued and argued and argued some more. Each one thought they had the best idea about which super-human was the best and most powerful. Each one thought they knew what the most powerful super-human wanted most of all. They kept arguing. Sometimes some of the people even made wars and did very bad things to other people because they had different ideas about the super-humans.

Finally some modern people stopped calling out to the super-humans and started looking for other explanations for the causes of lightning, thunder, floods, earthquakes, sickness, and the other things that the people of long ago thought were caused by the super-humans. These modern people who wanted to understand how the world really works learned many things and wrote many books. They learned that people don't need the imaginary super-humans because people can love one another and learn to take care of themselves.

Playing make-believe can be fun but it is important to understand the difference between playing make-believe and what is real. Part of growing up is learning to understand the world in which we all live.

Thank you for all these posts, they're really useful. I don't want to skirt round the issue when he asks me, I want to be able to answer him straight, so I think I'll go with the "some people believe" line and get him some bible story books from the library together with his usual armful of shirley hughes and kipper stuff.
Mothernature, thank you for the Valinda Hunter explanation - I've printed it off to keep for when he's a bit bigger, but its really useful.

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

also, don't want to cause an argument, but in that story, I don't think it's really correct to put Christ alongside Zeus etc. Jesus existed. Fact. Whether or not he was the Messiah etc. is for everyone to make their own minds up about. But it's not correct to say that he was made up to explain natural phenomena.

Really don't want to cause an argument, but just wanted to point that out!

Badhair - what you could do is to just couch everything in terms of 'Some people believe that...' and then let your child make their own mind up. I imagine he'll probably get that at school anyway. You could also talk about other religions if you didn't want to push him in a Christian direction - then it's more like a history lesson than RE!

message withdrawn

no time to read this thread in depth, but here's my suggestion:

I think there's a good case here for parents not to present a united front to your child, unless you both happen to be devoutly religious.

My dh and I disagree on spiritual issues. It is not a massive division and we find some common ground, but neither of us compromise our beliefs, such as they are, for the sake of the other. My dh cannot logically believe there is an afterlife. I can. My dh never sets foot inside a church. I do. He is happy for me to do this, says he envies me for it, but will not come along, not even for a christmas service, and I would never make him.

Our sons (well the oldest at least) knows dh and I think differently about religion. He also sees us happily getting on with each other and every now and again discussing our beliefs with each other.

So I hope he sees religion is a very personal thing, and that everyone can have different beliefs, and that no one is intrinsically 'good' or 'bad' solely because of the beliefs they follow.

Above all, it is up to him to choose or reject his own beliefs, and we will encourage him to investigate religions so he can make an informed choice.

Goodness me what a huge question!!

I would just do the some people believe thing - but explain that there are many different enterpretations of God and try and work in a bit of religeous education - Islam, Judaism, Catholocism etc... - although may be a bit heavy at 3!!

DD has just started at our Catholic Pre-school and her doll is now called Baby Jesus and she is either Mary or Joseph - couple that with her sayin her prayers and crossing herself every five minutes - oh well its quite sweet if a little alarming!!

I think you have to give kids a balanced view of each religeon (says me after sending her to a Catholic School) - they then are able to make a responsible decision when it comes to what religeon they want to follow.

I myself believe that there is a higher being but don't subscribe to any particular religeon and that is after being brought up by Catholic Grandparents on one side CofE on the other and athiest parents - although to give my father his due he did actually let us choose which religeon we were if nothing else!!

I just read that Valinda Hunt story and thought it was a bizarre and simplistic way of describing religion!! I'm not at all religious but, if I were, I think I'd find that story insulting.

I'm with Davros. I'm an atheist- with an atheist father and agnostic mother. In my youth I was a bit of a holy roller for a while (very active church in the village I lived in) and they let me get on with it. I still love churches. I really, really like the buildings and the feel of a church. My old church is one of my favourite places, although like Davros I am an active atheist iyswim.

I also think that Valinda Hunt story is incredibly insulting. I'm sure a child told that could easily end up feeling superior to a child with religious beliefs.

I'd keep it very simple. "Some peope believe in x y and z- and this is where they go to gather together" etc etc.

That story of Valinda's makes me cringe too. It is very insulting. I don't like the strong link between belief and war either. It's too much for a young child to take in IMO.

BAdhair, why not bite the bullet and take your ds to a family friendly church service one sunday? Being inside and seeing what goes on might be the best answer to some of his questions - and you don't have to go again if it's not for you. We get new people turning up once or twice at our church all the time - I am hardly a regular there myself. No one expects you to come once and then make a commitment.

message withdrawn

I thought it was rather a good explanation and fail to see why it is offensive. I happen to agree it is true.
I don't agree it encourages superiority, but after all children who are religious are certainly made to feel superior to children who aren't - after all, they are going to heaven and the others are going to hell - not to mention superior to the chidren who are of different religions.
As for teaching morality. I don't think telling children to behave in a certain way because otherwise a big man in the sky will burn you for all eternity is necessarily the best way to do it

• and religion teaches plenty of things that I find deeply offensive and immoral - such as male superiority over women. Yes, of course there are splendid brave, kind and decent people of all religions (and of course, none), but that doesn't make me think it is the right thing to teach children.

I agree with a lot of what you said aloha. Just curious which religion(s) you mean teach male superiority over women?

message withdrawn

Aloha, i'm a cradle catholic and was taught that hell is a metaphor for being without God. The burning in flames thing was not taken seriously by the nuns who taught me and i've never heard a priest suggest it either. I was also taught that being well towards other people was important because we should reflect Christ/God in our lives, not because we will be ounished if we don't. As for feelings of superiority, again, not something I'm familiar with, but being taught that we are blessed because we "know" God, yep.

Whilst i accept that a l ot of "religion", of any brand is hard to swallow and that man has committed (and still commits) many wrongs in the name of Religion, I do find it sad when people use outdated preconceptions to make their point.

But the Bible is full of hell - surely that's the text that Christianity is based on? And the Bible is also full of God's wildly imaginative and gruesome punishments for various misdemeanors.
Hercules - all of them! Islam is the obvious example, and is sadly clear in all countries where the Islam religion is practised, but the Bible also makes it very clear that women are supposed to submit to men, and in Judaism women are segregated during menstruation, not allowed into the main part of the synagogue etc etc. There may be some matriarchal religions which promote equal opportunities, but I don't know of any.

IslaMIC I meant to say.

message withdrawn

Most Christians understand the descriptions of hell to be symbolic as noone actually knows what it looks like and most christians see it to be a state separate from God rather than an actual place.
How much do you actually know about Islam?
Yes of course people have misinterpretated it and used it to oppress women but this is not the fault of the religion, more to do with some of the people who practise it. A lot of muslims get very upset by the stereotypes of their religion.
I could spend a long time explaining Islam but will stick to a few basics to show my point.
Islam was the first religion/person(Muhammad) to introduce rights for women and make them law. This was done to protect women in those harsh times. The Quran's (which is seen as the word of God ) rules/commandments) apply equally to both men and women and they will be judged on exactly the same criteria. Women can go to work if they choose and both men and women have a duty to educate themselves as far as possible and practical. No where in the Quran does it say that women should cover their faces and in fact the rules of modest dress apply equally to men and women. There is no idea of forcing anyone to follow any of the religious practises in Islam and women and men should have a say in their marriaged partner and can refuse their parents suggestions. A marriage in which with either party was forced is not recognised by Islamic law to be valid hence not recognised.
The idea of men having more than one marriage partner was introduced in a time when there were far more women tnat men due to battles and was introduced so that these women could help each other, have children and companionship. The women have to agree to another wife and can say no. The men are not allowed to walk away from their responsiblities and must provide for their children in cases of divorce.
I could go on and on and on.
It just bugs me a bit when people generalise about a religion without knowing much about it.
What saddens me more though is how religion is used to oppress people and has been doing this for years. This is not the religion though but the people
I could go on about Christianity as well as there are lots of theories to show that this is not sexist but I'm more concerned about Islam as it is so clearcut in its teachings.

www.islamic.org.uk/womright.html

Cant to links I'm afraid.

aloha - modern paganism/wicca is pretty equal opportunist (in some branches, more matriarcal (sp?)) That's the only one I can think off hand though. There's arguments to say that "ancient" paganism was more matriarcal but depends very much on how you read historical and archeological records, as far as I can tell.