DD does not seem to be thriving

[whenInDoubt]

Frustrated Dad here. I have 2 lovely daughters, well-behaved, conscientious, sensitive. My youngest (8) is developing nicely, shows an interest in things around her, asks deep and interesting questions about poignant subjects and shows a growing understanding of the world around her.

My eldest (10) is another matter entirely. She lacks interest in just about anything other than food (mainly ice cream and sweets) and clothes. She struggles with basic questions of arithmetic or common sense (e.g. on holiday at a museum I asked her to explain how a flame made a metal pipe make a sound; she looked at me blankly; I asked her what the flame did to the air; she said "cools it down"). She does very little at home except read books (which she seems to have no recollection or understanding of afterwards if you you try to engage her), and watch TV (she again shows no comprehension of what she is seeing). She complains when I want to watch things such as sport.

She seems very afraid of effort. She recently said she wanted to enter a competition. I said to her "well the standard will be high so it's not enough to just scribble an entry and send it in, you may have to try several ideas and refine the best one until it is of the required standard." She decided not to enter. Her school performance is reasonable. Her teachers like her (she is easy to deal with I guess), she "gives 100%" according to her end-of-year report which can be read several ways.

My wife and I have tried pretty much everything to draw her out. We've bought her books, a Netbook (she played Moshi Monster games on it and that was about all), sat her in front of educational TV shows (she watches it blankly). We've set up reward schemes for achievement and even disincentives for lack of effort. We've tried to encourage her interests in lots of things from cookery to science to sport but nothing works. I feel frustrated that my relationship with her is so poor, and concerned that secondary school (in a year) will be a real shock for her. I accept that not every person is destined to be academically brilliant, but she has not discovered an interest or a talent yet and I find it difficult to encourage with so little to go on. Any advice would be appreciated.

OP, I am not accusing you of avoiding questions, because in a thread of this activity level. posts can be easily overlooked, but would once again repeat .....

Are you, at any point, open to considering the fact that your daughters feelings and emotions are rooted in the way in which she is viewed by you?

Our job is to equip her with life skills that schools cannot or will not. By definition, these will not be her terms.

I can't disagree more strongly with you on this. Someone upthread put it beautifully: give her roots and wings - that's what your job should be.

Befriending shy kids at school, giving me a hug when I am down

Many adults struggle with those skills. She sounds like a lovely girl.

You say that you don't have time to cook with her but you take her to museums and ask her questions about pipes. Why don't you spend tge precious time you have doing things that interest her?

@ResNullius just to clear that up, I would be very surprised - in fact shocked - if there was no element of that in her psyche. I can hardly remove myself from the dynamic.

She is definitely scared of me and my disapproval. One of the jobs of a parent is to set boundaries, inform children of what is expected of them, and follow up on transgression. She is scared of me because this is what I have done (using the heinous weapons of Time Out and Sticker Charts). Eventually she will figure out that you don't transgress because you get punished, you do it because it has adverse consequences for yourself and/or others.

For some children, reading a book is fuel for an inner thought process that is private - they may not want to share this with others.

Your daughter is approaching puberty and over the next few years she will naturally separate in some ways from you as her parents. If this process is handled well, then she will return to you with a different, but just as strong relationship.

So she may now appreciate a more adult approach in some ways - the kind of discussion about a book that you would have with a peer in a book group, rather than the kind of discussion you would have with a younger child.

What is 'transgression', in this context?

All parents discipline their children.

Not all children sound to have the relationship with their parents your DD has.

Does your other DD 'transgress' less, and that's why she is less afraid of you?

I don't get how we suddenly got onto transgression from a context of talking about her having different interests from you.

Perhaps she has already figured that out. Perhaps it is time to trust her a bit and let her find her own feet? She sounds like a lovely girl.

Hmmmmmm - so lack of interest in physics or in having a mini book club discussion is 'trangression' is it? Right

She is definitely scared of me and my disapproval. One of the jobs of a parent is to set boundaries, inform children of what is expected of them, and follow up on transgression. She is scared of me because this is what I have done.

Again, I utterly disagree with your premise that fear is a natural outcome of normal parental discipline. It absolutely isn't. Children should have a healthy respect for parental authority, but fear? No.

Is this possibly a misunderstanding between us? Do you really mean scared?

@LRDPomogiMnyeSRabotoi transgression refers to the sorts of things such as hitting her sister, stealing stuff, lying, refusing to help out with tidying and a whole other bunch of largely unrelated stuff that has led her to have a fear of me. It is largely in the past because she has, in all honesty, been exceptionally well-behaved. But it surely taints my relationship with her now.

Oh my god, you do mean fear.

I don't know what to say now.

Your poor, poor girl.

OK, I see.

It's really sad that she actually fears you. Those sound like such minor things. Do you realize you've just typed 'it surely taints my relationship with her', too?

Maybe if you sat her down and reassured her that the disciplinary stuff is entirely separate from anything else like whether or not she's interested in science, it'd help? It's just, these things seem to overlap for you and for her.

OP, this will doubtless surprise you but I am not at all averse to the concept of children having a healthy fear of 'consequences'. I was not a smacker, but had a "Paddington Stare" to be proud of, and often debated my options if I ever actually reached '3' on the count scale. As the mother of thoroughly upright adult citizens who have never seen the inside of a cell, or a police station, been fired from jobs or acted in any way other than as responsible adults with solid careers (and now do a damn fine job of child rearing, themselves) I stand by my choices.

However I find it interesting that you defaulted to thinking about punishment, whereas my reason for asking was based in the concept that a childs feeling of self worth is directly related to the reflection she receives from those closest to her. The father/daughter dynamic is quite critical in this respect.

Do you have thoughts on this aspect?

@CinnabarRed I can't say whether she's scared of me, or simply scared of the consequences of transgressing the boundaries we've set and knows I will enforce them. Only she knows. She fears my disapproval, probably.

It seems your dd finds you utterly boring and I am not surprised. Why can't you engage in the things she is actually interested in rather then the things you want her to be interested in?

OP (and OP's wife), I think you are well-meaning but you don't seem to appreciate how damaging it can be to be frequently asking your DD questions about all the things she's read/done/learned, and then, as you have both admitted, to be unable to hide your disappoint when she doesn't give you the answer you hoped for. You really need to leave her alone. It's no wonder she is retreating into herself and not wanting to give you proper answers. Let her experience and explore the world in her own way.

And FFS I cannot believe you have so little faith in her as to suggest that, even though she reads all the time, she may not be taking in the words, just because she can't spout off about it to you afterwards

*disappointment

I too am not at all averse to the concept of children having a healthy fear of consequences.

But not fear of the parent. No. Never.

OP, I'm genuinely horrified that you can't tell which it is that she's scared of.

posts occurred while I was typing.

Can I make it quite clear that I in no way agree with actual 'fear of a parent' being an acceptable way for a child to live.
Ever.

Nor should any discipline cause a state where children are not able tpo absolutely express themselves to parents.

I know you don't agree with 'fear of a parent', Res. It comes across very clearly from your post.

She reads and takes it all in, she is just too scared to discuss it with you as she just wanted to enjoy the book and not be quizzed on it. Bloody hell give the child a break.

@ResNullius I think the general drift was towards the view that if I was disappointed in my daughter's attitude then that would be communicated and internalized. I think I must have got a wire crossed as someone else was posting with regards to transgression. Need tea...

@CinnabarRed said something about "Roots and Wings"

Well I've only a partial feel for what that means, and it might simply reflect a philosophical difference in parenting. Or it might just be a big lump of Woo. Or I might agree with it entirely. So as long as discussion is in terms of airy-fairy generalities, then they are not going to be constructive.

OP, I have a 10 year old girl. She isn't at all like me. Although, like me, she is very academically bright, her skills and interests lie in a very different direction. She dances. I can't. She is extremely socially adept. I am not. I find science endlessly fascinating, she doesn't.

If I were to approach my DD as you approach yours - with the idea that it is my job to 'mould' her, to ask questions about things that she doesn't find interesting, to test her on what she has read 'in case she doesn't understand' - we would both get very little out of the relationship.

My job as a parent is not to 'mould' her in the way that I think she should be. Yes, we have some ground rules, values that I hope will stand her in good stead in later life. But my job is to open doors for her, and to let her peek in. To accompany her on the journey as she explores what she is good at (and not good at). To applaud what she succeeds in even when it is something that I do not understand (she competes in dance. I have no idea what makes a dance good or not, but alongside her I have learned how to support her in what she loves to do). Also, critically, to stand back and to leave her alone when that is what is needed, and to judge when that is the best thing to do.

Here is an idea.
Look at your posts about your dd. take a pen and paper. Split your posts into good things and bad things.
Then take the bad things list and burn it. Take the good things list and rejoice in it.
Your child is who she is. She is only TEN FGS. Maybe if she enjoys a book and recommends it to you she doesn't want a deep and meaningful social discussion. Maybe she just want a to share it with you. Maybe she gives you monosyllabic answers because she doesn't have a clue what you are on about!
I had a dad like you. I was never quite good enough. Always a close second to my younger brighter brother. It's taken me 38 years to deal with this shit.
FGS just love the child unconditionally for who she is. Love her for her warmth and compassion. Love her for being average!
You don't need to push push push all of the time. Just let her be who she is and stop sounding like a flipping tiger mother!