Yet another F****ing Fours Thread!

[Beccarollover]

Ive been clogging up the Bar with this so thought Id start a thread.

I know there have been LOTS of threads about badly behaved 3-4 year olds around at the moment sorry if this is all just a repeat of those.

Im not necessarily looking for answers just a place to vent and a bit of support.

I have had about the hardest day as a mum that ive had so far and have ended up in tears a few times - the behaviour or my DD has got me to the point where Im not enjoying her at all and its making me sooo sad - she is the light of my life but I feel Ive lost my little gorgeous, funny, cute, bright wonderful girl to a pest that screams, shouts, scratches, bites, moans, whinges, kicks etc etc what seems like all the time.

Today for example she woke up whingeing about something or other and it carried on literally all day - i feel like im permanently either dealing with a tantrum or trying my best to avoid her going into one - this is becoming increasingly difficult as anyting and everything sets her off. Today the thing that kicked off a HUGE tantrum was me asking her to pick her coat up off the ground that she had thrown down in temper - she responded with the usual NO NO NO YOU DO IT and threw herself on the ground - I gave her to the count of three and if she didnt we wouldnt be going to ballet - she didnt so I didnt take her to ballet - got he in the car and she started kicking the insides of the car of kicking the seats and screaming - I said if this carries on by the time we arrive home you will have to go to your room - needless to say it did so I put her in her room - she trashed it, I went in and literally couldnt see the floor, drawers were pulled over, videos and pens everywhere, paper covering the entire floor and toys everywhere. I decided to just ignore her - this led to her screaming and screaming and kicking her door and walls for about an hour - GET ME OUT OF HERE OR I WILL KILL YOU I HATE YOU I DONT LOVE YOU YOUR HORRIBLE GET ME RIGHT NOW OR ILL SMASH MY BED AND NEVER SLEEP IN IT etc etc - In the end I waited for a quiet moment and went in and said are you ready to be calm yet? and let her come downstairs on teh understanding as soon as she misbehaved she would go straight back - calm laste for about 2 minutes, i got her a drink of water and it was in "the wrong glass" she kicked off so i took her back upstairs and left her - more kicking of walls and doors ensued with more shouting then she starts shouting IVE BEEN SICK IVE BEEN SICK LOOK WHAT YOUR DOING TO ME - i went up, cleaned her without saying anything and put her back to bed - she eventually went to sleep after more of the same at 11pm - throughout the night she also wet herself for attention 4 or 5 times. The coat incident started at 3pm and until 11pm she tantrummed

What do I do?

I feel very sad - normally I can shrug it off and roll with it but Im starting to really not enjoy being with her, I feel like ive lost my little girl

Im sure ill feel better tomorrow !

Im really sorry this has gone on so long - needed to let it out

Not sure if I have even made much sense - today is typical of most days at the moment

Becca
xxx

Oh Becca - I really really do feel for you. My dd used to be a complete nightmare too, and both dh and I felt we were really losing control. We felt like cr*p parents too as we couldn't do anything right. I am ashamed to admit times when I was glad to dump her in nursery and run off to work! I felt worse when I used to see other seemingly well behaved angels. As Ponygirl and Issymums describe we were definately parenting around dd.

Anyway there is light at the end of the tunnel. Dd is 3.4yrs and is definately a lot better. Here are the some suggestions from various sources (inc other mumsnetters) I have tried

• Ensuring she has enough sleep (grumpy dd is definately more prone to temper outbursts)
• Being consistent - this is v hard to begin with but if you say you are or are not doing something you need to keep to it EVERY time
• Warning her of impending events during the day
• Watching her diet - as JimJams last post. I try to restrict additives as far as poss
• Fish Oils - haven't tried this yet though but there is another thread on this
• 123 method
• The book "how to talk to kids, so that kids will listen and listen so that kids will talk" - I found one of the best advice ever (thanks fellow MN's for that recommendation). We really really did see a change in dd once adopting the principles in here

Thats all i can remember. Dd still has her bad days and does fly into rages but it is nowhere near as bad as it was, and we are all much happier as a result.

Well, she is up - got up at 9.30 and we lasted until 9.32 until the first I hate you, humph, throw myself down on floor and cry - the cause of this one was I asked her if she would like to help me cook in teh kitchen NO NO NO and ran away

Becca, haven't read everyone else's responses so apologies if I'm repeating. Blimey, you poor thing, I do know the feeling and it's horrible. She's testing you and your boundaries and it sounds to me as if you're doing exactly the right things by letting her know it's unacceptable, telling her what will happen as a consequence, being consistent and following through with all your threats. She'll get the idea if you keep up these strategies but it might take a while. There will come a point when she knows you mean what you say and there's no point in pushing it because it makes her life worse rather than better. Just a thought, but is she getting a bit of attention when she's good or indifferent too? I once realised I wasn't doing this enough (as a result of re-reading Steve Biddulph) so correcting that helped me. Good luck with riding the storms. F*ing fours is such an appropriate phrase IMO

Keep doing what you're doing, ignore her and tell her you'll talk to her when she can be polite etc. Mostly, don't let her see she's getting to you and keep calm. I do know it's easier said than done though.

Becca, I have that how to talk book and can send it to you if you like. I didn't like it myself but I know others have found it useful.

When she first woke she said "Im Mrs Sunshine now" when the tantrum happened she said "See, now you have turned me into Miss Naughty" I sad what happened for you to turn you into Miss Naught, can we have Mrs Sunshine back" She said "NO POOHEADPOOHEAD" So Ive left her shouting and told her to tell me when Mrs Sunshine is back!

got something from tesco baby club thing today - suggest the 5cCs for dealing with bad bahviour

1. Clarity - tell your child exactly what you expect her to do
2. Comfidence - sound as though you mean what you say
3. Consistency - don't change your mind
4. calm - try not to lose your cool
5. Control - stay on top of the situation

HTH (i had to fish it out of the bin.......DH and his tidying up!!)

Also becca, I think it's fine to tell her you love her ALL the time but you don't like her behaviour when it's like this. I hope your day improves. And you didn't turn her into Mrs Naughty, she did it herself. But you know that!

becca - we need to meet up at some point.....as then when you know me I wuoldn't feel totally bizarre in what I am about to say......
I would be happy to take your little one out for a walk or something whilst you spend time with your dd in the future....
would do it today for you but we have never met properly so that would be a bit strange
i really feel for you and am trying to thikn how i can help...being soo near by..

Dd is a right drama queen, she can founce for England! My response to the shouts of "I hate you" are in a calm voice "that's ok sweetness because I still love you". It drives her mad!

Part of my problem is that I can see so much of me and the way that I over dramatise everything that I find it funny. Yeah sure I used to get stressed about her doing it but she now does it much less (dd is 4 1/2 years) as she's at school all day.

Remember once when out in Tesco's dd had major tantrum on the floor, a lady walking past stopped and clapped and cheered and said encouraging things like well done that was amazing, dd got up very quickly and behaved for the rest of the trip. A type of shock tactic, never had the courage to try that one myself though.

Popsy, you really are a poppet That is a lovely thought, yes we will have to meet up

www - am I right in thinking you introduced a behaviour book with your son or have i got you mixed up? Would you recommend that tactic?

I have the how to talk book - only read about a chapter, quite liked what I read but couldnt get on with the format - I might give that another go.

Yesterday when I cried, I would normally do my best to hide it but I thought No, let her see the effect she is having - do you think this is wise or might end up messing with her head!?

WWW - what you said about not really liking her when she is like this is spot on and thats what makes me feel awful - I dont like her at all when she is like this and it feels so wrong to feel this way about my daughter

give me aring if you get hacked off BRrrrrrrrrrr

Hiya Beccarollover, WM here. I have a list of the enumbers that should be avoided if you want it, please contact me via Mumsnet. I have also had advice via the Hyperactive Childrens Society to remove orange juice and wholewheat products from the diet (replace bread with organic white and weetabix with porridge). This has all helped DS who was getting into some terrible states last year. Not saying he is perfect now, but so much better that other parents have commented on it spontaneously. We also cut chocolate out of his diet too, incorporated a multi vitamin supplement and a childrens acidophilous supplement. It's helped him remain calmer for longer in situations he percieves as stressful and give him more time to think of the consequences of his actions, therefore react differently. The one to one attention helped with DS too, I made time to have him on his own for a half a day a week and choose exactly what he wanted to do, and it made a big difference to how he perceived I felt about him.

You mentioned further up the thread that your DD get away with everything at her Dad's, and can eat anything she likes. That can't be helping either for you trying to be consistent. Poor you.

If I can be of any further help please, please ask.

Lots of sympathy and support.

WMxxx

Becca, your day at the beginning of this thread sounds horrible, poor you.

Just a thought, and I KNOW it sounds hard but have you tried sitting down and giving her a hug? Sometimes I do this with my dd1 when she is being bloody awful and she just sobs and sobs and then feels much better.

Last night she kept grabbing the cat so I told her if she did it again she would have to go to bed with no cocoa - she did it the minute my back was turned so I sent her to bed, she FREAKED, hysterical crying 'its not fair, I've had a terrible day, everyone can have cocoa except me (?!)'etc etc. Flailing around etc etc. I took a deep breath and hugged her, she sobbed for a bit, hugged me and then we had a story and she went off to sleep. I know its hard to do sometimes but I really think they frighten themselves sometimes with the force of their emotions.

Dd1 was really, really naughty when dd2 was about 5 months old. It was horrible, but it did pass. I really tried to stay positive and constantly praised her good behaviour and went on and on and on about how much her new sister loved her (even though it was clearly not true!!) and it seemed to do the trick, you have my sympathies x E

Becca, yes the behaviour book was me (and tigermoth has done this too IIRC) and yes, I would recommend it. Will look for the old threads for you. Ds got to the point where he'd get upset if we didn't write something down as it was inconsistent with the rules as we'd excplined them.Agree with enid, sometimes they need a hug and permission to break down and stop the tantrum, they do scare themselves sometimes (I know the feeling, me too some days!)

How do you decide which tantrums to Hug them out of and which ones that would be seen as letting them off?

I may give the behaviour book ago, would appreciate any guidance on how to introduce and explain it - we had a short spell of success with a sticker chart but then she lost interest and didnt care if she got a sticker or not.

Becca, one thread here. We explained it to ds, put the typed rules on the wall and braced ourselves while he tested us to see if we meant it. We had a nasty couple of hours (not saying he was perfect afer that mind you!) while he pushed and pushed to check we did. I reckon it helped. Ds did see me react to hurtful words sometimes - it's impossible not to and I think it's good that they do see the effect sometimes, we're human.

beccarollover, I read some fantastic advice here once and I have never forgotten it. If your child is in a terrible mood, sit down with them for 10 minutes and give them all your attention. Not in talking about the cause of their tantrum - shift emphasis away from that. Read a book, play with them, anything they want. You might be fuming inside and feel like punishing or ignoring them. This may be the last thing you want to do. But this sudden attention can lift a mood magically. This tactic has worked for me in the past.

Also, you said this morning you asked your dd if she wanted to help you cook but she started to tantrum. IME, sometimes it's good to ingore the 'no' and just get on with the cooking and let your dd get drawn into it naturally.But I bet you've do this as well. Reading your posts, it looks like you've tried all the tactics I can think of.

I have to admit, I admire those of you who can get a 4 year old to tidy their room. I can just about get mine to put his toys back in a box. He can cope with small tasks but not big ones. I have to be very specific. If I want him to 'get ready' I have to say, please put on your vest, now put on your trousers, now your shoes etc etc. I also had to do this with my older son until he was at least 6 years old.

AS www says, we found a behaviour book worked well. My son was 8 when he had this and both his teacher and I used to write comments in it. I have never tried a behaviour book with a younger child, but it worked well for www.

Hi Becca
Loads of sympathy from me too. I also had a bad time with my ds when my dd arrived - around the same time - 4 months in. I think he suddenly realised that dd was here to stay! I expected his behaviour to deteriorate when dd arrived - it is a massive change for firstborn children when the second arrives, their world is turned upside down - and it really did for a while.

Things that worked for us:

• Loads of 1-1 attention (I know - easier said than done)and over-praising even a glimmer of good behaviour.

• Lots and lots of ignoring of bad behaviour - dp and I agreed on what really were the important things to tackle (zero tolerance for eg aggression to us/ dd)and eased up on a lot of the rest for a while. We also totally ignored whining 'sorry darling I can't understand you when you talk like that'.

• Talking a lot about how we were all feeling, acknowledging that dd's arrival had changed things. Planning our time together, together.

• Star charts to target difficult bits of the day - those things that have to be done but always trigger a scene - like teeth cleaning, getting out of the bath etc. We also put things on there we knew he would always achieve IYSWIM, so he always had some stars at the end of the day.

• Keeping to his routines as much as possible - agree agree on the need for sleep/ rest times!! He dropped his daytime sleep almost as soon as dd arrived, but when he's at home we still have a quiet time in his room after lunch eg with a story tape on. Also looking at food - my ds can wake up in a filthy mood if he's hungry too.

• Our sanction is counting to five and then a much loved toy goes in the cupboard. Special praise if we only get as far as 2/3.......

I really feel for you Becca and I know hwo hard it is to stay calm, but IMO it does no good when your child sees you lose control too either crying or screaming back at them etc. I think that when a child has lost control themselves to the extent you describe with your dd, they rely on the adult to be a stable, calm presence - I agree with Enid that children can be scared by the force of their emotions and that sometimes the child can't 'find their way back' from a tantrum. One thing a friend said to me when I was having hard time was that my son saw a very different side to me after dd was born - I was a lot less patient, more snappy, less tolerant, more preoccupied, lost my temper with him (had never done that before)- and this combined with the other changes a sibling brings is very disorientating. His behaviour was testing my affection for him. This really made me stop and think about how I was behaving and how that affected his behaviour too.

Hang in there - it will get better.

I think I need to break everything down into manageable chunks - as at the moment I feel so overwhelmed with it all I dont know where to start!

1. I need to get her routine sorted and include some more 1 on 1 time

2. I will introduce a behaviour book - if at the end of the day she has done well she gets a sticker on the page - I might suggest to nursery it goes tehr with her - she is very good there so she might enjoy getting the praise written down and encourage her to carry it on at home

3. I will use the 1, 2, 3 trick consistently and if I get to 3 the outcome is a time out on the stairs or her bedroom

Hows that for starters do you think?

well done becca!
i thikn send the book to nursery is a good idea
do they know what she is beig like at home atm>?
she may be horrified if she thought they did - encourgae her to behave if her teachers are going to find out!

I think 1 and 3 are brilliant ideas, personally I wouldn't bother with the behaviour book unless consistent use of 1 and 3 dont work - IMO it just reinforces the fact that she is 'naughty'.

I really think a routine and lots of 1:1 will improve things immeasurably for you.

x E