do your kids do as they're told when they're told to do it?

[thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat]

cos if they do I want to know your secret. probably like most parents I use a mix of the stick and carrot - which in our case usually comprises removing or adding beads to a pot, with beads adding up to treats. (ie the mn pasta jar but with beads) All well and good and it is pretty much guaranteed to get results. But I am fed up of it!!!!! I really cannot get dds to do anything without issuing a threat or a bribe and it's driving me up the wall. I really don;t want to have to count to 10 and take away or add beads for every single little thing. Has anyone found a less specific way of rewarding good behaviour which actually keeps them on their toes all (or at least most) of the time, as opposed to one where they only actually prick their ears up and do as they're told when they hear the word bead/pasta/star/sticker?

Spots, I followed it enough to want to scroll back and read Greensleeves post - when I get a minute - sounds good!
DD is only 2, so far not much problem discipline-wise...but there's time, there's time..

NVC would say... let me think...

he has a need to play with his toys on the floor. You have a need to keep an orderly house. The conflict resolution has to start with both of these needs being acknowledged before they can be in some way met.

Think you have be very patient to go through the whole thing with every little toddler related incident. That is my main problem with relating NCVC to real life. But a bit of patience isn't such a bad thing if that 's all I take away from it.

I mean, I don't mind him tipping them out, but when he refuses to pick them up I will either bribe him or threaten him (binbag) to make him comply with what I want him to do.

I can sit and moan at him until I am blue in the face about how sad a messy floor makes me, about how if it is untidy we might trip and hurt ourselves, about how I need to have a tidy house, but at the end of the day, he is 3. He doesn't care what I want or need.

And although there is no more moral correctness in my authority than there is in his, there is a great deal more sense, which he doesn't see. He will do what he wants, I will do what I perceive to be best for him. (And me!)

I am just playing Devil's Advocate with this, Spots. I love to discuss parenting techniques. I think everyone must have an opinion on why their's is best.

DD1 is almost 8 - always does as she is told although these days she will often try to argue about it first. She knows that if I say something I mean it. Occasionally will threat/bribe in a minor way - ie. there won't be any tv until you've tidied your room.

Secret is to not give in once you've made a decision - stick to your guns and be authorative. I'm convinced that the tone of voice I use helps - she knows I'm serious! .

DD2 though, delights in defying me, but then she is only 11mths....

yes but try to pretend they cannot hear me at first

dd 14yrs -does pretty much as asked.

ds 3.5 yrs -very defiant,says no to everything.Drives me nuts.

I do a count to 3 or I'll get angry and shout!Usually works,but yes it pisses me off that I have to do it all the time.I'm sure he'll outgrow this phase eventually.

I have a three year old boy too, colditz. If he tips his toys out all over the floor I certainly don't "sit and moan at him". For a start he has an area of the house in which he is allowed to tip his toys out if he wants to, and if he starts spreading them everywhere I either step over them, if I don't mind, or if I do mind, I ask him to tidy them up and offer to help him sort them out and put them away, sing the tidy-up song etc. If I am very busy indeed and just need him to pick them up NOW for some reason, I talk to him, explain what it is that makes this situation different, and ask him to do it. If he sulks or whinges I ask him "why do YOU think I want you to put the toys away now ds1? Can you tell me?" and he will usually beam, give the right answer and then tidy the toys away. If he is having a really awful day, or a tantrum, or has just woken up on the wrong side of the bed, then I would tidy the toys up myself quickly, walk away from him, and then when he was calm and happy again I would take him aside and talk to him about why it happened and how it could have been nicer for both of us if he had felt like helping:).

Not that I never cock things up, because I DO, all the time. I am not trying to be holier-than-thou or suggest that parents who use charts etc are bad. I just have my own ideas about how my children can learn about human relationships.

Phew. Have read Greensleeves' post, do much the same - at least, ideally.

I've started feeling a bit inadequate & concerned now, because I use a sticker chart! As I said, I have instinctively felt a little uncomfortable about it, because I'd like dd to learn to obey me for the sake of it, or because I am authoritive enough without having to use bribes/threats. But I really do think she is too young for me to try being like you Greensleaves, all that explaining etc. (She's 2.6). And I don't always have the energy to be all fun and frolicking eg when it comes to tidying up so that it's fun for her and she does it for that reason...
I do know that I too am a bit of a control freak so the fact that threats/bribes work is disturbingly satisfying! Also, she absolutely loves her sticker chart and looks forward every day to that little bit of chocolate after tea so to stop doing it now would be a cruelty! Does this mean she will never learn to get dressed/clean teeth/change nappy/put coat on without a bribe? :(

My mum told me something interesting she heard on Radio 4 about how there are "trends" in parenting techniques. How in her day it was all fluid earth-mother type stuff, and now it's become controlling etc because women are supposedly trying to do it all, going to work etc, so they need their kids to be in set routines, sleeping through, etc etc. In actual fact no particular way is probably correct, children adapt to any way of life don't they - and of course they are all different.

I'm really sorry if I've come across as feeling superior or made anyone feel bad for using sticker charts etc. It's so personal - parents and children are so different, no system would suit everybody. If your system works with your child and you are happy, that's great. My system works (usually) with mine, and I'm happy with it. I'm certainly NOT an expert in child development, and I make elementary arse-ups all the time, I was just sharing my ideas.

When I have finished reading the book and thought some more about what I think I will come back and contribute some more. I have loads of half-formed ideas in my head at the moment. Don't hold your breath, it could take me months with my amazing non-sleeping child :o

I don't think you have upset anyone Greensleeves, (there's a turn-up ), I think Bourneville was already questioning her own methods and discussion like this can be very helpful, well, it is to me at least.

Oh my god, I didn't know what pasta jars and sticker charts were before coming on MN. I don't have any parenting techniques. I just yell and cajole and hope for the best! Bet my kids will be in therapy twenty years from now. :) But then my parents did the same with me, with occassional spanking, and i turned out fine.

am the only one on MN who adores my parents, by the way?

Poppadom, as far as I know, yes :o

Yup

I adore my mother

And I think I must be doing okay cos DS1 (13) was asked to write about people he admired and he wrote about me and his father [smug emoticon]

I adored my mum ...and she was a behavioural child psychologist

Mars, that is lovely - I would be weeping with joy if that was me.

i like the pasta jar approach. don't personally have the patience or inclination to go for the explain-and-discuss-everything approach. the dds (5 and 4, 1 year old not included in all this yet) seem to like fixed rules too, they appreciate them at school and at home, and for visiting chidren. it's not THAT pavlovian, they can critique and re-netogiate rewards and sanctions. am all for developing understanding and reasoning, and i love a good argument about ethics and behaviour with my 4 year old, but not all day every day.

especially say in the mornings with 3 small children to get out of the house, there really isn;t time for any individual discursive approach. am increasingly sergeant majorish the more children i have.

GS... I did! I also rang everyone (whilst he was out of course) and read the essay to them. The godparents, the aunties and uncles, my best friend..... When he has finished with his exercise book I'm gonna frame it (but put it up in my bedroom.. don't think he'll be too impressed if it goes up pride of place in the lounge myself! lol)

LOL Elibean, 'relief at not having to attend course'. I don't subscribe to this way of thinking totally, am just fascinated by the discussions it throws up. The thing is, it has so much confidence in the child's own ability to connect to an adult's emotions. Even a couple with a 6 week old baby are encouraged to 'discuss' things with her. The time thing really is the most difficult to navigate, I agree. Explanations take ages. But I do find myself naturally veering towards the explanation tack. And I think I probably explained things to DD even when she was 6 weeks old. How this will translate into discipline later, when she is old enough to reasn back at me, I do not know.

For my own part, and without all this course stuff, I do think lightness of touch is invaluable. I suppose the thing about sticker charts and pasta jars is that it takes the focus off the impossible conversation you are having with your child, so it's a form of safety valve for the parent as well as potentially a time saver? If you can remain sane enough, in the face of the insanity, to stick to the point of what needs done rather than cranking up the octane it's so valuable.

hmmmm. well first of all the pasta jar/bead pot approach works - in terms of getting them to do whatever it is - no doubt about that (for us anyway). I actually quite like the fact that my two can be mucking about in a shop and I can say "I'm going to count to 3 and I want you to come here" with 99.9 per cent confidence that they will. My main point was that I am now seeing the downside which is being ignored unless I say the word bead and/or count. I'd just like them to do it the first time! They are basically good kids and I can get them to do what I want. It's just all rather wearing. Re the other stuff - tone of voice, praise, explanations, I do all that too (surely no-one uses one system to the exclusion of others) but it still takes 2-3 requests and/or specific consequences (positive or negative) and it's just getting somewhat tiring. Custardo - nice post. I had you down as a lot harder than that- if you don;t mind me saying. You almost sound like a softy.

F&Z that's exactly it, Greensleeves hasn't upset me, as you said although I have been happy with the sticker chart because it does work, I haven't been entirely happy with it as I have been wishing there was another way. So yes, discussion like this is very helpful and looking forward to reading that book! :)
And spots, that's exactly it, it takes the focus off the task in hand, gives the control back to me, and I feel a bit uncomfortable and frustrated by it. I want dd to put her coat on because she understands that's what she has to do in order to go out and also because I have told her to!!

I don't know about "explaining" things to a 6 week old but I did talk constantly to dd. It makes sense, because there is always emotion in your voice and I suppose even a little baby will pick up on that, whereas with silence they will hear nothing. Not convinced a silence isn't loaded though, I'm sure dd can tell the difference when I'm silently cross/miserable than silently content & happy!
A friend I am in regular email contact with who had a ds a month after me emailed about beginning to talk to her ds months and months after he was born, and that she felt like a wally! It came so naturally to me that I found that weird tbh!

hat woman :) - you've explained exactly what I meant in a much better way!

My heart completely agrees with Greensleeves ideas. This is how i was going to raise my children, and with DS1 I pretty much did (drove my parents crazy with my patience and explanations), but now I have DS2 and DS3 and unfortunately found I had to resort to a pasta jar to make sure I was not being a total nark with them all the time. Needed a positive edge again to get them to do what I want, because I don't have time for endless explanations anymore. Well, sometimes I do, when it's one on one, but not when there's three at the same time needing sorting out.