Talk : Antenatal support thread for women who have chosen to terminate V

[treedelivery]

Welcome to the 5th thread.

An amazing day to begin a new journey together. The thread babies are arriving and we take this as a positive nod from the great karma controller - whoever and whatever that may be.

Good luck to our thread, to the souls who read, those who post, those who drop in to learn and hold hands.

Our cyber bench is a supportive place, we sit outside hospitals as strong but scared women go to ride their wave. We huddle in our cottage when the weather is bleak, stormy or biting cold.

When the sun shines on us we share stories of real life, gain strength and giggle together in times of warm weather.

Hi ladies

Lins, what a lovely story. I am so happy that Franklin is so gorgeous and you are so loved up. You've done fantastically well (ouch).

Mishtabel, good news about Bella, her milk and her oxygen. Hope you get a cuddle really soon... it must be tough.

Helenlouisey, after my first termination my period returned after 27 days; after the second, it took 6 weeks. Consultant said anything up to 8 weeks was totally normal - even longer was fine, but less normal. Saying that, after the second termination I was going crazy as it got towards 6 weeks. I just wanted to know my body was doing something normal... good luck with the wait.

Hi Viv - how are you doing?

I just read the Observer article online. I've also been reading ARC stories lately. They are so sad. I read them and think - who could cope with that? - and realize I have. How resilient the human spirit is. But at what cost?

Shangrila, I am sending you lovely strong labour vibes.

Hadnt even realized it was Burns Night till I came on here. Chilli and guacamole and sour cream tortillas here. Not very Scottish, but then I am not.

Please send get well vibes to LittleMissCan't, who has a high temperature and isnt at all herself...

Oh Gawd I came on for gossip but am reduced to hormonal mass of tears reading about you and your birth Linspins. Thank you so much for telling us about your feelings. I am so happy your son has burrowed [sp?] into your heart and made a nest.

Ad now you don't need to worry about how you will feel towards him because you know it is all ok. He sounds so lovely.

Great news that Bella continues to thrive, but it does seem to go so slowly. You must be willing the time away to your big cuddle day Mishta.

Shangrila - are you alright? Hope you are hanging in there.

Hope littlemissCan't is feeling cooler/better/less shivery. DD1 spikes temps all the time so I know worry you have Can't.

Bee - how are you doing?

Love to peanut an numpty and Helen and VivC, Katie and Eulalia, bezzy and MrsB and all of you.

Must go blow snivelling nose

Hi everyone, it's so good to hear from you all and what you're up to.

Lins, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Am so happy for you. I think it's always a good thing to work thru issues whilst pregnant rather than when baby is here. Either way though, babies have a way of making us fall head over heels in love with them. You can feel that love in your story, and it's just beautiful. Would love pics - let us know when you've figured it out. I will do likewise when I return home.

Bee, it was pelting down here too last night, huge storm. I love looking at lightening if I'm safely inside, however 'noisy neighbour' doesn't and shut all curtains. The noise of the storm was too much competition for her I think. We don't get the 'observer' here, obviously, but I am curious. Might have to google it. Was it about terminations?

Another thing I will have to google is Burns night - never heard of it, but thinking is another Scottish festivity. I know Shangrila is from Scotland, and it sounds like you are too Numpty? Anyone else. I like to picture whereabouts you all live.

Eulalia, I hope the weather is nice this weekend so you can enjoy your weekend away. Are you in Wales?

Can't, I know what you mean when you say about reading tragic stories, thinking how do they cope, then realising you've been thru it or similar yourself. It's hard to know how we got thru. What choice do we have though? Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and give a hug to that poor innocent girl I once was, and tell her that no matter what happens, she will be alright. The ward I am on has no babies on it - it's antenatal care for high-risk pregnancies, or for mothers who have their babies in the NICU. Lots of sad and worrying stuff around. Hope LittleMissCant is feeling better.

Hope Minibezz is on the mend too. Thanks again for the name Bezz- much better than what I was coming up with. You're good to remember Australia Day. I had a little jumpsuit at home in size 0000 for Bella to wear today which said on it 100% Australian made - thinking we would be home by now.

Bella had both chest drains clamped last night, but this morning was 'working to breathe' again, so a chest xray was taken which showed her left lung had healed but the right pneumothorax had expanded again. So 1 drain was removed and the other unclamped. Was told once she had only 1 drain I could have a cuddle, but the nurse she had today said no, not while drain in Anyway, nurse this arvo got me to hold Bella up off bed while she changed sheets. Also got to give her a wash, including her hair. And best if all - she is off oxygen! Trialing it anyway.

Bit sad today cause family went back home to organise girls going back to school. 13yr dd starts high school Thursday and I still haven't organised her uniform. Luckily my sister is with them to help, she flies back to Melbourne Thursday. DH and girls will come back here Friday after school. Keep me company until then?

Viv and Numpty, good to hear from you. Going to pop in and say hello at other thread.

Take care everyone xxx

Hi everyone,

Lins - it was so lovely to read the story of Franklin's arrival. You sound utterly smitten.

Mishtabel - sounds as though Bella is continuing to make good progress, and am glad you got the chance to hold her and give her her first bath.

Read the Observer article before I went to bed last night and it made me cry with both anger and sadness. You're right, Bee - the language was so callous and inflammatory and I got the impression that the author was trying to portray the surgeon as such a cold and unfeeling man - almost robot-like.

It also stirred up some anger that I've been trying to keep a lid on regarding the support I've had from my family, and specifically my mum. I'm extremely close to her, but she's not really 'been there' for me in the way that I thought she would. Part of the issue is that she's very much the doting grandma to my sister's baby which is, of course, absolutely wonderful, but every time she calls me, she must spend at least the first 40 minutes of the conversation telling me about how amazing my niece is and how much she enjoys spending so much time with her. As I said, I don't resent this in any way - I'd expect nothing less! - but I kind of don't want to hear about it every time she calls, you know?

Anyway, sorry for the mini rant. Hope you all have lovely days xx

Morning all

Viv - I think family and loved ones all react differently to our horrors. My family choose to forget that I've had so many lost babies now. So much so, they didn't even know I was pregnant last time. I shouldn't complain though, as I don't know how to handle it when someone brings up what's happened anyway.

Maybe your Mum speaks about your niece as she's unsure of what else to chat about that's easy for you both to join in with?

Glad to hear things are looking up for Bella, Mishtabel. Must have been amazing to give her a wash. Very kind of you to be thinking about us when you have such a lot on your plate. Minibez is a million times better thanks, all it took was 2 doses of the antibiotic and temp was back down to normal and the barking had stopped. Fabulous stuff.

Burns night is in honour of Robert Burns, the poet that wrote amongst others Auld Lang Syne. Scots eat haggis and drink whiskey to celebrate. (I spent 7 years living in Edinburgh). I think you'll find that Eulalia and Numpty are Scottish and Shangrila is from our other neighbour - Wales. Amazingly, she's only about 45 mins from me, as I'm on the border in Bristol.

As for Australia day, I shouldn't take too much credit for remembering, as it's also the Captain's birthday today.

Much love everyone - and sending painless labour vibes your way shangrila

BK xx

Oh I'm sure that's the reason for it, and I'm sure she won't even realise she's being insensitive (in fact, I know she'd be devastated that I'm feeling like this). However, I just want her to do simple things, like ask me how I am.

A few weeks ago, I made a comment about how I was dreading going back to work after the Christmas break because technically, I shouldn't be going back to work at all (ie. I should be on maternity leave) Mum's response was that I should feel lucky as I've only just come back off a three week honeymoon so shouldn't need a break so soon... Again, she probably wasn't thinking, but that's what's annoying me - she should think.

I know I'm being hard on her btw. And I find it hard to explain this to DH as I don't want it to sound like I'm being resentful of my niece - I love her to pieces. So it's one of those things that I'm trying to work through on my own which is tough - and hence why I'm rambling on here.

that's what we're here for.

Girls here seem to be the only ones that understand our mad sensitivity.

I find that people don't like asking how I am anymore, because they're afraid of the response!

Thanks for filling me in re: Burns night, Bezzy. And I must have got Eulalia and Shangrila mixed up cause I know Eulalia is Scottish. Think I have Shangrila on the brain, wondering how she is going.

And Viv, Bezzy summed it up - that's what we're here for. Rant here and no-one gets hurt. My mum doesn't live near me, so it's mainly my MIL that makes the insensitive comments, however, like your mum, I know MIL would be horrified to know what she says at times is insensitive. I know she doesn't mean it, but it can still be hurtful and/or annoying.

This sounds bad, but my mum doesn't know anything about Bella other than she was born on Friday. She would only worry, and say things that would make me worry more. She wouldn't be sending 'good vibes' so we'll tell her once Bella is home. Don't know how she'll react to that!

I'm awake at all times of night expressing milk now. If I keep going on here when I wake, I'll soon be operating on UK time. Better try to sleep

Goodnight all xxx

bezzy, good to hear mini-bez is feeling much better. What you're saying to Viv is just right, our families seem to manage to forget about the lost babies. But its different for them, they've not been through it, even my dh seems to have forgotten and that's probably why I'm on here so much, I'd not be able to talk about it to him.

Anyway ramblings always welcome here!

Mishtabel, thanks for the update on Bella, hows she doing otherwise, putting on weight yet? Is this your girls returning to school after their summer break? Sorry for my ignorance. Bezzy has filled you in on where we all are, I'm in a tiny village 6 miles from Stonehaven which you can Google. Burns night is actually celebrated worldwide particularly by those with Scottish connections

must go, ds2 is having a tantrum.

love to all, xxxx

ARGH! Yet another email from friends with a delightful first trimester scan pic in it.

Why does it STILL make my heart speed up and make me shake? My face is now burning with tears streaming down it.

This is ridiculous, I'm a dreadful person, they're good friends, it's their first baby I should be happy for them.

Will these feelings ever end? If I don't have another baby, am I likely to feel like this forever? I don't want to be a bitter person. I want my old life back.

Sorry for being self indulgent when there are more serious matters happening here, but I don't know where else to rant where someone might at least understand how I feel.

BK xx

Hi Bezz, 5am here, awake and thought I'd pop in (light was on). Saw your post and couldn't not reply.

Do me a favour; scroll up (or down, whatever the case maybe) to the last message you posted, to Viv it was.
It reads 'that's what we're here for. Girls here are the only ones that understand our mad sensitivity'. Your advice to Viv applies to you too, only I wouldn't say it was 'mad' sensitivity at all. Totally understandable in anyones book I'd say, and I'd like to see anyone cope better or with 100% noble thoughts in situations like this. I'm sure you know you're not a dreadful person, so I won't even go there. Be gentle with yourself. Sending you hugs xxx

ps: Happy B'day to Captain C

Hiya, I just popped in from next door for a nose. Just wanted to say to bezzy, you're not alone there. I get really upset everytime someone I know posts their scan photos on facebook. It's such a jarring image for us. So many associations of terrible memories and trauma, sadness, bewilderment, anger. I've lost count of the amount of scans I've had now but they've all been upsetting, even the last one I had last week.

I find it a lot easier to hear someone's good news and see their new baby and feel joy for them than their scan pictures to be honest. It's just that image. I can't even look at them when they do them on TV/films etc.

Oh bezzy. You are a lovely lovely person, who has had massive trauma and saddness. You just got a slap in the face and a kick in the stomach - you cannot be expected to like it.

Because you are lovely and not bitter you will send congratulations and probably mean them - but of course you need to let out the anger and fear and burning tears. It's ok to do that. You are not bitter, you are in pain. If you hold in pain it can pickle you. If you let it out it is diffused. Just let it out when you have to, al through life. These days will hit when we are 80, though less frequently, they will still pop up I think.

Dear Mishtabel - it is so lovely having you pop in when you are living in the new baby world. How you remember the thread and the people on it means an awful lot. Travelling through your birth is helping everyone to heal.

VivC - it's really hard. I think it is ok to just say 'you know mum, going back to work is massive for me. It reminds me of what I lost'. If you think it would help. More as a way to protect yourself, than to make a point.

What has happened is so out there, no one really knows how to deal with it.

Bee - quiet Bee. Must be a sad Bee, or a lonely Bee, or a working 12 hours and travelling every day Bee. Much love anyhow.

Love to Shangrila and lins.

Hello kittens. Thanks for popping by - you have wise words for us. I'm sorry the images are so hard for you to look at. Horrid feeling for you, I can totally understand and imagine.

Hi everyone

Mishtabel, I'm so happy that Bella is off the oxygen. And that you got to wash her. You're being so brave through all of this. Of course we are here to hand-hold through the next few days, weeks, months, whatever. Can I also say that you manage to post so generously despite being stuck in hospital yourself - you post thoughtfully. That means a lot.

Viv, others.. I know how you feel about family reactions. My parents in law have classic insensitivity. At Christmas my MIL compared us losing 2 babies with her finding labour hard work with her 2 (easily conceived, 18 mths apart) kids. I couldn't believe it. I ended up saying: 'well at least your babies were born alive'. Which is pretty dreadful. My parents have been better, I think, because I managed to make them look at the photos and hand and foot prints of our second lost girl. That brought home to them what we had all lost. Having said that, my mum still wants to downplay what happened. In my case I think it's because parents don't WANT to remember the pain their children have been through; it's too hard for them. So a very rambling way of saying to Viv: I expect your mother has unconsciously blocked what's happened to you out of her mind. But it is interesting. It has taught me a lesson - when my daughter is older and has suffered, will I manage not to block out her suffering, but accept it head-on? I don't know yet - she's too little and all my pain is too raw for me to foretell. But it's a challenge.

For the scan photos, I HATE THEM. This is not only, by the way, because I have had some vile scan moments too (the horrendous nuchal where baby was shown to be unable to live... the anomaly scan where there was no fluid whatsoever) but also because I think it's insensitive anyway. You never ever know, not really, if other people are struggling to conceive/dealing with not being able to conceive/whatever. Sending them scan photos is very intrusive. Like Kitten, I find the news of an actual birth less difficult - also this is because when I see the baby, I realize it isnt the baby I would have had and wanted. Whereas scan photos are hard to stomach.

I think it must be particularly hard if you have never yet had a positive scan. But then, if you have never had a bad scan, you probably don't get it. And so you will send your scan pictures to all and sundry. And on Facebook.
Different world.

Hi Bezz; yes, scans. I'm wondering what the difference is and it seems to me that many people feel relief when they see the scan. There are lots of women who post on the pregnancy boards before the scan saying 'I don't feel pregnant, I just don't know if things are all right' - and then they see a picture of a real baby: their baby, moving about. It is an amazing moment, and I think it sweeps all memory about the sensitivities of friends out the window, that relief that there IS a baby there, that it is real. And they trust things are all right.

But for us, we DON'T trust that relief. Even if we see the scan and the baby is there, waving, real... we worry. Because in the past we have had reason to, so why not this time? It does make it so hard to think and trust that things will go well...

Hi Tree

crossposted. I think you are right that Viv should remind her mum. And not to make a point, but to show her she needs her to acknowledge her pain. I think parents feel completely inadequate faced with our kinds of loss, they dont know how to handle it, or resolve it. The truth is it can't be resolved. But we need the loss acknowledged as a real loss.

Shangrila, hope you're okay. Thinking of you.

Oh Cant. This last post has made me cry. All the loss and the pain and the bloody damage. You decribe the horror of the scans. I'm so so sorry you lost your babies.

You are right and generous about the blocking thing. You are too brave to block any suffering your child encounters. God if living through this thread has any impact on me - let it be that I am brave. That I look someone [my daughter, my patient, my friend] in the eye and say 'I am sorry. What can I do? Would you like to talk about this?'

You are all so brave. You have had to be, maybe those that haven't been challenged in this way don't actually realise they are capable of so much more. They are capable of sending a message to say 'Listen, I know you have had a personal saddness, but I am pregnant and I don't know how best to tell you'

Different world.

Exactly Tree. I want to be able to do that: to look the people I love in the eye and face up to their pain.

I fear that often I don't though. Because in the end - sometimes you need to be incredibly strong and sorted yourself to do that.

You know what though, Tree? You DO do it. You come here and acknowledge our pain and you talk to it. You are already the person you describe wanting to be.

Not always though Cant. Sometimes I have to post and fly, or can't check in because rl eats my brain. I can come on my own terms and that makes it a lot easier for me than rl people. I think. I hope I would step up in real life too though.

I'm not sorted or strong. I've never really been tested like you have, Today I have nothing in my life as hard as you have, so I can have empathy at no great cost. If that makes sense. In other words I am no angel

I tell you what though, you think you have problems. I'm having weight watchers sausage and mash for dinner. I'm not even on a diet

It is different here from RL, I agree. And our families are watching people they love suffer. Different.

But WHY are you eating Weightwatcher food??

They were half price in the co-op next to school, and I am too tired to shop or cook.

I thought they would be healthier than a take away. This has back fired as they were the size of a starter and now I want my main.

I wish we had healthy take aways. If someone would deliver a chicken and noodle thai style salad that would be great.

Oh Tree - that is bad... I mean the dinner. Was it nice? No, I know the answer to that....

So much posting, so hard to keep up. But I'm so glad Bella is in the clear and Franklin has safely arrived, and hoping Shangrila is ok too.

Mishtabel, it is lovely to hear about a new baby, really it is, no need to worry.

Scans on FB - and by email - make me furious. Even before this time I never felt comfortable - we sent an email of ours to both sets of grandparents but not to anyone else. It's almost a private thing for some reason, don't really know why. Now of course it's like a kick in the stomach every time I see one and I cannot believe people have the insensitivity to post them particularly on facebook.

Can't - you're right, an actual baby that's fine, lovely, but it's not my baby but it's the pregnancy, that's the thing that really hurts. Re your MIL - christ. I said a similar thing to a "friend" (actually DH's) while we were waiting to get the go ahead to terminate. To cut a very long story short she knew everything we were going through (has been through similar but all is apparently fine, it wasn't a big deal for her......) but had neglected to tell us she was pg - the moment she chose to announce it to us (everyone else already knew) was in front of a room full of people at her birthday party while adding that we had the same due date. (thus also announcing my pg) I said, "yes but you'll be having yours" in the angriest rasp. Not seen her since.

Oh no, more bitterness from me - had a big weep and long chat with the insensitive friend (who by the by also posted her scan photo on FB) after I bit her head off today for saying her life was crap. I - and you ladies too - am the only person allowed to say that (so bored of myself)

Anyway Viv - I think your mum just doesn't know what to say, I'm slowly realising that people just don't get it at all. And mums seem to eb very good at telling you to just deal with it, whatever it is.

Bezzy, I'm sorry, you've had more crap than most. I know mini bez is about the same age as mine, and so I imagine you too are surrounded by baby no 2's while wondering if you'll ever make one.

Kittens - I saw your situation on the "other" thread, am rooting for you.

oh and Bee - can i ask, did you get your blood tests back? How were they? I thought of you today as I trudged down Harley St for yet another scan.I look at every woman I see on that bloody street and wonder what they're there for. (Although I suppose some of them are just having their boobs done and I'm feeling empathy with them for a tragedy that doesn't exist)

Anyway, so I finally post, so another evening disappears!

Have you tried out the cookery book that Bezzy and I live off, the Fay Ripley one? You can make loads of it in advance and it's all easy and yummy - healthyISH but not teeny portions.

(Says she who had a gigantic portion of beef stew, mash and cabbage, for dinner, followed by a Twirl....)

A rare moment on the computer in the evening, and just wanted to add to what everyone has been saying about scan pics/facebook/insensitive family/friends.
Before the termination, I would have been one of those people who emailed 12 week scan pics around as my way of telling people our news. Thoughtless, but truly in a naive, lack of understanding, kind of way. This time round, I begged my husband not to even mention it on facebook (I'm the only person in the world not on it), let alone put up a "smug" announcement, because it didn't feel right, and because I know of friends who are having trouble conceiving and I understand what they must be going through. So while our close friends who we have actively chosen to tell know about the preg., our wider circle of acquaintances doesn't, and that feels more appropriate. I'd quite happily not tell anyone until after the birth if it were possible....!
In terms of jealous/difficult feelings when people announce pregnancies, I also thought it would get easier once I was pregnant again myself. But it turns out not to be entirely the case - one of my husband's cousins is just four weeks behind us, and I nearly cried when I heard. She is lovely, had been married for less than a year when she fell pregnant, and fell almost immediately they started trying. I'm still just so jealous of the vast majority out there who can just get pregnant and not have to navigate through this horrendous minefield of decisions and emotions. It isn't fair that they can and we can't, and there's nothing we can do about that.
The other way I find people are insensitive is that virtually everyone assumes that now I theoretically appear to be "successfully" pregnant, that this somehow wipes out what has gone before. Either they don't ask about how we're doing any more, or if I mention that I'm still really sad/scared, they look a bit like I'm being a bit of a drama queen.
Oops, that was long, sorry - just reading the earlier posts made me think about it all again.
Love to all, K x