support thread for women who have chosen to terminate IV

[bezzyk]

Hello ladies old and new.

Here's hoping this thread brings better luck and much happiness.

Lots of love

BK xx

Gosh SO much going on here, this thread is fit to burst.

First of all justa - so glad you can fit in some time here with so much going on in your life just now. As someone said above it is so difficult for you to deal with your new baby and your dad at the same time.

To return to THAT other thread. It angered me too - too much polarity, and the thing is terminating for social reasons isn't entirely separate from disability reasons. The two issues are intertwined. The main factor for me terminating wasn't necessarily to do with the baby at all, it was to do with my other children, the impact on them and my own ability to cope. When I visited the doctor to confirm my pregnancy she asked me if I wanted to continue, long before any testing was done, purely on social grounds. Daft thing is I could have gone down that route and few would have frowned at me at all. And yet with a disabled child one is supposed to find extra reserves of energy and time over and above our already stretched lives. Good for those who do it, but those who do it successfully are in the minority and to what cost to themselves and their health and family. What did interest me about the thread was those who came on (some of whom were disabled themselves) and said how difficult it had been. It was, and still is too huge a debate to polarise so easily.

And despite all that I still have a huge regret over what I did, it goes against all my principles. It all felt too rushed and too monumental a decision to make without any proper support. My issues for a book or whatever would cover this and lack of options given to me, lack of clear advice and information. I had one day alone after our agonising 'decision-making' weekend and I phoned the Downs Syndrome Association for help. I wanted someone to tell me what to expect, what support there was out there etc. What did I get but an answering machine! I did get someone later in the day who was a bit wishy-washy, but it felt like it was too late then, I just felt alone, and neglected and thought, its always going to be like this, a struggle.... I think even that shaped my decision...(dh had left the ultimate final decision to me, hence why I felt so scared and alone). Now months later, I think I could have coped, I should have, but my only compensation, the only way I can relieve that regret is to throw myself into my existing children, to see how I can do more for them and be a better mother rather than a tired, stretched, barely coping mother.

Saying all that and I've just told dd to go away and I feel fat and worn out anyway! Weighed myself earlier and wish I hadn't!

As for different threads... well it could work for those who want to talk about the minutiae of pregnancy, tests, scans etc... I don't know, I do feel the odd one out here in that I am not pregnant, nor trying to be pregnant but I do appreciate a place to come and offload my feelings... feelings which despite it being 9 months since the termination can come back so strongly.... and I really have no one else to talk to, so for me it is much appreciated whatever form it takes. And I want to thank you all for being there and listening and virtual hand-holding.

Off to join the rest of the family now who are watching a DVD, and probably have a very fattening glass of Baileys (well it does need using up....)

Apologies for long post.... love to all xxxx

Hi just want to put my twopence in re thread splitting etc.... hope its taken in the spirit its meant!

I read this thread about once a week, I came on here at a terrible time and got fantstic support for which I remain extremely grateful - but tbh the reason I stopped posting, or even lurking too often is that it does seem as though everyone is pg, about to be pg, etc. It's about as bad on here as RL, ie every single woman I know apart from 2 are currently pg.

I know I'm a bit unusual in that I have bad fertilty issues in that I will never get pg again with my own eggs but I have noticed people coming along, posting once then disappearing. I actually considered creating a new thread myself as it's too painful to come on here and I sometimes need somewhere to go - luckily the no of women in my sitation is extremely low (bitter emoticon)

Also most of you have been together for a long while and so have become friends - which again is wonderful, but when in the middle of the worst thing to ever happen it's hard to talk about baking, kitchens, interior decor (esp if you don't do those kind of things!)

I don't really know what the answer is - and I so hope I haven't offended anyone but I saw this was an issue and thought I'd add a bit from the other side. Actually I think it's up to someone recently affected by this to create a new thread if they want one - which I should have done. But then everyone on that one would get pg too so I'd have to leave that one too....

OK, am going to post - go easy on me.....

Aw bless you Peanuthead, you have really really valid points. Those have given me a real insight and I for one will mull them over.

Never worry, it is ok to say what you need to. I totally get what you are saying. x

Dear peanuthead - I remember your story so well and it still saddens me.

Perhaps the thread should be split. I know it came about because of people being pregnant after termination and being worried about the results (Linspins and Bee) and sadly in both cases the result that time wasn't good. So I do think there is a special requirement for people TTC after ending a pregnancy as there are huge issues to deal with, and fears. At the time I came on here it was around the time that Lins finally got better news re her pg this time around, and it was nice for me to see that there was hope even for someone who had previously had such devastating news twice over. However it WAS also a bit odd, as she (and many other on here) are due around the same time I would have been with Iola. For myself, I'm reconciled with that in that I know Iola would never have been here for this date, the decision was taken away from me. But I guess for others it might be more difficult.

I've also wondered whether it is more difficult on here for those who terminate for social reasons, as we tend to remember our lost babies and I guess it might be more difficult for those who decided not to go ahead with a pregnancy. I know we are equally as welcoming to ALL, but someone who has not yet dared post might just wonder... but I guess until it is raised as an issue it might not actually BE an issue. Too much splitting would make life very complicated!

I think the reason the thread ventures into more banal topics is that sometimes it is nice to lighten the mood a bit, it's a way of acknowledging that life does carry on, there are better days and worse days and all are part of how we cope.

If anyone wants to split the thread, I'm happy to go wherever...

Better go and get food finished, DS hungry!

xx NM

Me too, I'd try to be around on both threads if I could be usefull. Although I actually have no business here really so maybe this is a cunning plot to runand hide the thread from that crazy stalker tree......

It's hard. My concern, if that is the word, is that there would not be enough 'traffic' to maintain 2 threads in a healthy active way. Traffic is a crap term. Enough sad worried souls dealing with a loads of heavy heavy stuff. That covers it better.

I guess though, that as long as there were a core of regulars, if that core is even 2, then that is a healthy supportive space.

I wonder what you all make of that?

Dearest Eulalia and Peanuthead and everyone else
I think it is important that we have this discussion here, and thank you for articulating your feelings here too. It causes me great concern, Cantdo has expressed it well too I think. Originally we were all freshly bereft, raw and in agony. Here was a thread that was honest and immediate and many women were battling with similar sorrows and angers.
Time has passed - friendships have indeed grown, many more women (sadly) have joined us. So, I can see that the ante-natal threadness of our thread is alienating for some. I find it alienating at times and I was a founder member. Over Christmas I struggled with some dark, isolated pain amidst all the joy that was shared here about scans and testing. I know that the road is a rocky one for the women here who are pregnant and they need to stay in touch with the trauma, they need to process the fears that live alongside the joy. So, possibly we do need a new thread for 'women who are pregnant after a termination for abnormalities'. We would hate to alienate the very women we set out to help, the very women we were.
I know the feeling. I recently tried to browse a similar thread for women trying to conceive with IVF and could not navigate around the room - did not know the women, understand the chat. I felt like I had arrived at a party where I knew no-one but needed to feel connected. Badly. It is why I feel we need something very immediate and immediately obvious - here we are. You have just received shocking news. We will help you and you are right; I am not sure the mood is sending out that message.
I also felt at Christmas that if I asked for help, if I explained my feelings, then they would reach out and be there and understand. And they did. They do. But I can do that because I trust and know the women here. So it would be so much harder for a newbie.
I am going to go off and think.
Reflect.
Also I think the talk of cardis, baking and wallpaper is a way of soothing the trauma. It is not for everyone. I realise it is not. Distraction helps some people some of the time.
Peanuthead I do hope you are finding a place to offload, I do know the isolation and pain. It is frankly at times unbearable.
Got to go and cook (supper I hasten to add, not cakes!)
Bee xxxxxx

In fact if we old timers want to 'chat' I guess we could do it in a different way.

I do have a vision of something more prominent somewhere; for women who have been diagnosed with some kind of pregnancy issue to reach out for support and information, whether it be the middle of the night or Saturday morning when all other channels are shut. And there would be information from all angles. Thinking about it though, I think this is what 'ante'natal choices' as a topic is for. To post, to ask, to inform.

In reality our thread is not what it advertises anymore. Yes, we would and do support any woman who asks for support. But often the daily posts are about scans,tests, ante-natal issues, not necessarily termination agony. And, as I said earlier, it is easier for me as I know you well enough and you know me of course, so if I gently squeak the word. 'pain' or 'sad' or 'help' - then you are all reassuringly there for me. A new person may well be too raw to deal with this.
It is why I posted in the first place, way back when.
Of course, and thank god, many women have started their own threads with testing issues; some of them have migrated over to us. Some of them are now friends.
Peanuthead, you must be in such a lonely place darling. I am on the edges of it too; I talk of IVF and egg screening, as you do egg donation - but we both know that is a rocky and possibly unfruitful route.
Just wish we could be what everyone needs.
x

Dear Justa - that you find time, emotional energy and physical energy to be here at all is a wonder. You are a star.

Hope you are ok. Wish was a bit less busy/richer/nearer could come and do your hoovering and meet you. The usual lame excuses.

So if there was to be a 'support thread for those TTC or pregnant after termination', where would be a safe place to have such a thread? Past experience has shown that there are sensitivities to the issue of termination in the pregnancy thread, but on the other hand is that where people would expect to find such support - or here on antenatal tests/choices?
Tricky.

It's funny, I never would have joined an antenatal thread, didn't with DS. I think I've posted here because I knew others would understand the nerves this time round, and the memories it brings up - and because for those earlier on the journey there might be useful information I can share. I'm not sure whether I'll continue - not in any way because of this debate but just because I like to pop in and out of things and I've noticed how much Mumsnet is eating up my life at present! So I'm equally happy having had support through this early stage to disappear off again for a while, and wander back in occasionally to see how folks are doing.

If a new thread were to start, there might not be many to sustain it...

Hello everyone.

First, Justa and Tree - you hold the thread together, you hold us all up, and you've both had a hugely momentous year too. Thank you for that.

Secondly, I think that a separate thread WOULD be a good idea. Not so that all of those who are pregnant should migrate to it altogether, but so that a separate space to struggle with what it means to be pregnant after termination could be found without alienating or hurting those who aren't pregnant/don't want to be/do and can't be/do and are trying, whatever. So me, for example, I would post in both places, but keep my pregnancy blether to the other place. I wouldnt leave here though, not as long as I feel things in common and feel I can contribute and share.

I take Peanuthead's and Bee's comments that this thread has changed somewhat from what it was. And we do need to keep opening ourselves up to the other women who end up where we are/have been. One way of doing that is to read the other threads in this part of Mumsnet and invite people here - might be easier for them to join us that way. That is how I found you - Bee found me, on a Pregnancy thread actually, that I started myself, when I had the terminal diagnosis for my last baby.

For the trivia, well, to add a different perspective - when I was in the middle of my early trauma, Bezzy came on the thread a lot and talked about trivia. Molton Brown, I think, and bedlinen. And I can't tell you how much it helped, in between the heartfelt support. I think I need trivia to keep me sane in the middle of it all. I also think the issue isnt that we talk about light things but that that can create a tone that is not conducive to welcoming newbies. Perhaps as I said above we just need to find new ways of bringing the newbies to us via other Mumsnet threads. Cos if we banned all lighthearted comments, the thread would fall to the bottom of the list.

On another note, Eulalia, I just wanted to say thank you for being honest about your situation. I always appreciate your self-awareness and emotional intelligence. You are so right that 'social' termination and termination for abnormalities are inextricably linked. And you know what? You must be a fantastic mother because you really understand what it means to give to your children, and sacrifice for them.

Peanut, I remember you of course, and your horrible situation, and I hope things improve for you soon. I recall that before you got pregnant this time, you were on a list for donor eggs - do you get to jump back to where you were in the queue; how does it work? Do tell us.

OK, so I agree with Bee. New thread could be something like
'Support thread for women who are pregnant after a termination for abnormalities'.
It'd have to be on antenatal tests and choices, I think - on pregnancy it would risk running into the same old issues as before, no?

Justa - thinking of you and all you are having to deal with. Immense stuff as you say. Wishing you strength to get through it all.

That is true Numpty, that there might not be enough to sustain the other thread. I guess then it would just die a natural death, and that'd be okay?

For me, I am quite happy to stay here and not talk about pregnancy. Don't talk about it in RL anyway. Anyway, I will go wherever the majority decide!

I was just looking through some of the other topics in this section, and there ARE some where people are coming to terms with ending a pregnancy and thinking about TTC - it's just that obviously they wouldn't think about checking out this thread (and at the time those posts were written, I don't think people had become pregnant anyway). So it might be that others not from this thread would join... but we wouldn't know that until trying it.

Guess we could give it a try and see - but it would be good to hear from Kittens and Katie and any others first...

Hmmmmm.
I've been here before on a fertility forum when everyone kept getting pg and the ones that didn't (not me that time thankfully) got quite angry and threads were split etc. And that was a shame.

It's sadly a perennial problem as losing a baby/infertility aren't someting you can react rationally to, no matter how much you want to. And as Bee said, yes you need somewhere to go when you ARE pg again and terrified of the scan as I imagine there is very little of the usual joy/excitement just fear. And as for terminating for reasons other than abnormalities, don't think this thread would be the place at all....

But then you end up with a thread for oldtimers whatever stage you're at, a thread for pg post termination, a thread for recent loss. And a thread for me. And all would be quiet as that is too many threads.

I think you should all carry on. I think with normal fertility then it must be very encouraging to hear of new pgs. In fact I think WE should all carry on - I'm actually so glad someone raised this issue as I'd like to start being here again but didn't really know how and also went through a stage of being very angry with this thread for everyone discussing conception, when to start, how long to leave it etc (good to be angry in grief even when misdirected!)I felt (feel) like the only person on the planet in my situation.

Also after the initial raw grief went away while I was waiting for the burial,(by the way around that time I was just reading not posting, and someone - maybe Justa? - described their experience for another poster - again incredibly useful both in terms of knowing what to expect and also emotionally) I was so low about ever conceiving again, very bitter about pg women and looking back from the calmer place I'm in a month later (gosh a month, such a small amount of time, feeling so much better)I think extremely angry with the world.

So, ladies, if you'll have me, may I resume my irregular posts?

Bee - infertility forums are very intimidating - the whole acronym thing, the whole "hun you poor love" thing, but then they are a mine of info so I think worth wading through. I am more than happy to discuss/inform, but then we have yet another thread....

And I am actually about to start TTC myself again - start the nasty hormone injections on tuesday, fly out to Cyprus end of the month - Tree, am your mirror image!

Ooh I xposted with about 7 posts there!

Ooooooh - I would hate not to hear all of your voices - I would hate it. But I think maybe what we can do is this;
this thread continues and maybe it should be called 'support thread for women who have chosen to terminate due to abnormalities' or not the last three words.
And then, if you felt you wanted to, Cantdo and Katie and Kittens could start another one- pregnant after termination - for issues that really are about pregnancy. But PLEASE for goodness sake, do not disappear from this home. If the second thread does not take off and you are happier here,then that is fine and lovely.
We are all observant watchers of the other thread posters I feel and we do invite them here if they wish to join us.
You are right Cantdo, you are so clear in your words. We need the flim-flam, the piffle paffle. It is what makes us a community and not just an information centre. I love that community spirit.
Eulalia - you are honest and your pain is palpable and I think you grapple with similar feelings to me. In the end we made a decision; we had to. It was heart-breakingly hard, it will never go away but we made it. Did you read the article in Family section on The Guardian yesterday by the husband of a woman who had terminated for DS? It was strange timing since we had spent so much time discussing this issue the day before.

Welcome back Peanuthead! I had been wondering what had happened / is happening to you.

I've just written a long message offering my thoughts on the thread, but have deleted it. I felt as if I was coming across as a spoilt, jealous brat.

I initially thought that splitting the threads was a great idea, but I'm now not so sure.

I don't want pregnant people to go elsewhere, as I value your friendships and everyone has valuable advice from all of their experiences. I, myself, have had an amnio, CVS and 2 miscarriages, so have lots of experience that may be of help to a newly pregnant lady out there. Not to mention that more than one thread would be demanding more than I think is fair to ask of Tree and Justa. I value their unbiased opinions tremendously, and not fair to ask them to keep track of more than one string of messages.

I don't begrudge any pregnancy here. We've all suffered tremendously, and we all deserve to have our tiny babies, that weren't meant to be.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, would it be an option to keep the pregnancy trivialities and chit chat to a minimum?

I hope I'm not coming across too badly, please don't judge me

Peanuthead - it is early days my dear. You are angry yes, and that is perfectly understandable. God, I remember how consumed with anger I was. I could not make any sense of any of it. It is hard, hard, hard. You can only do what you can do, feel what you can feel. Are you and your significant other bonded about all of this? We sometimes are and sometimes are not.
I am not even sure I am TTC to be honest- I may just let the process worm itself out of me, work its' way through me.
Glad you posted today - and glad you feel that maybe you can join us again. It is hard to ask. But sometimes ask you must. Otherwise we do not know you are there and cannot help. It is demanding though; sometimes I feel too exposed, too raw, too shut down and in the end.. well I post and cry and it shifts itself on. Tree helps here.

Ah my lovely friend Bezzy - how wonderful to see you. You see, here come all our buddies out of the woodwork. You are not spoilt Bezzy - spoilt would be someone who got what they want and you have not. None of us have. No one does.
But it would be hard to lose friends here - it would. I think we can balance things carefully. I really do; we are intelligent, sensitive souls. It can be done.
I would love to chat to you more; equally it may be you or maybe me or Peanut who is pregnant one of these days and will need and deserve the same support that Kittens and Cantdo need deserve.
Normally it is not so pronounced.
I think we have had a flurry of pregnancies; it has been Christmas and New Year and emotions are high.
Stay awhile people, stay awhile

Briefly, cos I'm immensely tired (nocturnal toddler) - I would be happy to avoid pregnancy trivia/chitchat here.

It occurs to me too that maybe people at similar stages of pregnancy (Kitten and Katie spring to mind, as though Katie is further on, they're both pre-nuchal) might want to CAT each other and talk off-thread on pregnancy trivia. But a lot of it isnt trivia, it's anxiety that finds its roots the diagnoses we've had.

I don't know what the answer is. I think talking about it all though has been a good thing for the thread. And as I said I am happy to be in two threads, happier, probably to stay in just one, and whatever happens, I'd still post here.

Just read the Guardian article Bee mentioned, online. I found it very well written, and honest, too.

The diagnosis itself changes everything, doesnt it, whatever decision you make...

God, I think that man has done a brave thing to write... hard for anyone.
Felt his 'cut off-ness' from the actual decision and termination.
You see, it is so very important to talk isn't it? I genuinely cannot imagine what my head would be like without this space.
Sleep well Cantdo and take care of you.
xxxxxxxx

Wow, what an article.

Sadly, saw my own existence in his words. Which prompted heart to heart with Capt C and cleared the air a LOT.

(And to anybody who may wonder who 'Capt C' is, better known as DH. Bee gave him the nickname of Captain Condom after his reluctance to try to conceive again )

Much love to everyone, it's good to be back.

BK xx

Hi everyone, was in the middle of catch-up post when phone went flat, and I lost it all. Probably just as well, have habit of rambling. Just wanted to say have been sitting quietly in corner of cottage, content to listen to you all. Much deep and thought-provoking talk over past few days. You are all very thoughtful ladies. Can understand the differing views re: thread direction/ split thread. Hard to know, isn't it? Will post again soon. Take care everyone xxx