support thread for women who have chosen to terminate IV

[bezzyk]

Hello ladies old and new.

Here's hoping this thread brings better luck and much happiness.

Lots of love

BK xx

ah, that's where I've not loved my cashmere enough (it was slightly budget cashmere, M&S and Gap) - we have a very good washing machine with a handwash programme. But the problem is that after holidays, DH has a tendency to chuck the washing on... very helpful EXCEPT for where cashmere is concerned as he only ever uses a 40 cottons wash.

Oh Numpty, I hear ya. So many jumpers, so many little jumpers after dh has his mitts on them. I shudder to think really. Although mine were all budget too, and some Merino too. Sob!

Evening/morning all.

A curious nuit blanche for me, following a crap, lengthy session at ante natal clinic all day yesterday. Bump is fine. I am rattled. But that's not for now.

Goodness, what a dialogue from yesterday. I would have been typing manically to try and spew forth my feelings and angst on the topics of testing, termination, judgeyness (the best of terms - sums up the cat's bum face perfectly), and how all this can be depicted in literature and potentially received 'out there'.

Too much ground has been covered for me to comment at length, and anyway the thread has moved on. But I would say.

I have been judged. Here on the wider mumsnet, by members of the medical profession and by some of those in real life, who for whatever reason are party to a glimpse of my reality. Has made me quite militant, whilst confusingly still buttoned up. Some might say repressed. But these are my choices and I stand by them. And I wouldn't do anything differently.

On the subject of literature, I don't know. There is a story, or rather stories to be told here. But is this a cathartic piece or is it a self-help handbook written for women going through the worst of times, penned by those who have gone through it themselves and are out the other side? There is certainly a place for both kinds of writing. But as others say, it will not be welcome, just as there are a number of mumsnetters who would wish this space away. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, though.

Regarding the train and the various journeys ongoing at any one time, it was suggested a while back that a separate thread for those going through pregnancy after a termination might be an idea. I never took much notice at the time, thinking that that particular route had permanent leaves on the line for me. (Ok, not the best of allusions, but its nearing 5am and my creative juices are running on empty!) Strikes me now that it might be something that some may want to consider. And this is not meant in a divisive way, it just allows individuals to make informed choices about what they read, what they have the strength to comment on, when they want to. And as I'm writing this, I question why I am, because at all times in the recent past, I have recoiled from being treated 'differently'. But if it makes life easier for anyone, then it is perhaps worth contemplating?

With love to all of you. I am now apparently 'one step up from bedrest' for the next couple of weeks, so please tell me to put a sock in it when my whiney voice grates too much. As it inevitably will. Good weekends all round. x

And there was me, not intending to comment at length!

Just a quick note as feel I rather crapped on yesterday.
Please do not make a new thread for the pregnant carriage. I would miss you all so terribly. We are all on the same network; I like the idea that your line is running near to mine, I can see you and I wish I was on it but take comfort that Bezzy and Mrs BG and Eulalia are here with me. For now. There is not bitterness. Just sadness. And we all have that.
I think as long as we feel we can be honest, all of us, about our states of mind, then it can work. It is the way this thread started. Everyone here has a place.
Tree - why are you asking about Cant's booking in appt? Surely she booked in ages ago? She must be over 20 weeks by now!! Am I missing something. Ps I have some knitwear that has been in my laundry basket for over a month now - who is going to wash it I wonder?

Not irrelevant. Upsetting? Yes darling. I am glad he has at least some decision making left to navigate himself through the final chapters of life however. For him. Tough for all of you. New life and old life.
How are you this morning Justa?

Hi Justa.
I think that is very relevant. That is no choice. I'm sorry you have this track running along side the new baby one. 'Funny' old world isn't it.
Might spend any peacefull times today trying to find the word. I think planning and plans is the nearest I can get to it.

Cant has waited to book in, and is doing it next week. Lots of people who have had this trauma or similar do that, and I had a couple of couples who visably relaxed when I offered to stash their hand held notes in the clinic untill they were ready to take them home.

I'm for a all-in-one thread. Like the cake. Turns out brilliant with minimal washing up, but you have to work it. So yes, openess and respect for the mood of the poster. Which with our caring mood is no problem.
Justa and I and anyone else who feels able can be usefull here. We can flip flop between the two train tracks - the tentatively hopefull and maybe a glimmer of excitement pregnancy progressions, and the grief and fear of someone approaching the ttc question, or being in the early weeks, or being fresh from the trauma. Hopefully that will help everyone feel they can come and say what they have to.

And I believe the two tracks will merge together in all of you anyway. But this isn't a thread for me as such, so I am happy to follow you all where it leads.

Hello Shangrila. I missed you yesterday, you are a wise soul and so empathic. You are right, is this a diary or a self help book? Ultimately you are not living this to provide education for others. You are not obliged to be a learning resource.

I think if a book comes from here it should be in a good few years to come. This thread will still be the seed.

Bee - I think that you have your valid and burning emotions and saddness. The pregnant too, the shared common denominator is still there. You did not rain on any parade. The pregnancies still continue, and if you need to come and wail with the pain that will not change. Please don't carry any guilt. It is an honour to listen, and to be trusted with your pain. It really truly is an honour. x

I'm supposed to be deepishly cleaning the house. In my white company white brushed cotton p.j's as that is the way of things.

Have cleaned bathroom, even sorting through old shampoo and polishing the taps [excellent], have filed coats and idle piles of blah into proper homes, ie the hairclip box - but only on the ground floor [fair], have fiddled with dd1's bunting on her bunkbed which was time consuming [poor] and am now distracted by MN whilst in my student squat of a bedroom [predictable]

DH is making a cuppa and we apppear to have run out of steam. Plus I haven't eaten and am begining to feel bad tempered. Harumph.

Hi everyone

Justa has really nailed it. There is no choice. The choice was to have a healthy baby. That choice was taken away. And what we're left with is decisions that will never be 'right' as such, just the only decision we feel we can make.

I am so sorry about your dad Justa. And sorry he can't make it to meet your lovely DS3. Did you ever tell us what he weighed when he was born?

Just to dispel a couple of myths. 1) I have booked in, I am now 26 weeks and I booked in at 8 weeks, I just wasn't mad keen on the replacement midwife who booked me in. Must be someone else waiting to book in...? 2) I am not calm. I think I write quite calmly, but I talk very fast and frequently unintelligibly.

Helenlouisey, to answer your question. As I said before, I haven't had CVS/amnio with either of the two pregnancies that followed the first traumatic one. Both had very low risk from combined testing (ie 1 in tens of thousands, this time 1 in more than 36000). My logic may be different from yours and others though as I think I'm the only person here who has terminated following developmental, rather than chromosomal, abnormalities, ie abnormalitis that wouldnt show up on amnio/cvs. I've had 2 pregnancies go wrong with entirely different problems, and this pregnancy I have been scanned at 12, 14 (to check for kidneys), 19, 23 weeks, and will continue to have scans every 4 weeks. I suspect though this is more because it happened twice to me than because they necessarily do this with pregnancies terminated for chromosomal abnormalities. I was assured that Edwards/Patau would show up for definite on the 20 week anomaly scan - I think NumptyMum, whose baby had Patau syndrome, had a scan at 16 weeks too - presumably that can show up earlier than 20 weeks Edwards/Patau? I dont know. Good luck with what you decide - whatever you decide, you will worry... or I do...

On another subject - I am very aware that a lot of people here are pregnant. Which is wonderful. I worry, though, that a newcomer trying to find support after termination could mistake us for an antenatal thread. That is my fault as much as anyone else's -it isnt really anyone's fault. I think though if we don't decide on a separate thread for pregnancy after termination (I can see reasons to have one and reasons not to have one) we do need to be careful about making space for newbies and for the oldies who haven't TTC yet or havent conceived yet. I know we intend that, but the cumulative effect of lots of pregnant people means we can't avoid talking about pregnancy a lot and I hope we don't put people off. I think in future I might flag my posts so people who don't want to read about pregnancy stuff can avoid.

Tough, isnt it? Justa, am thinking of you. Also because I've read a lot about the clergy this week and the oddities of workload, lifestyle, and tendency towards bullying. I know you're on leave...

Does anyone want a giggle? This is sort of pregnancy related but it's funny. This morning, M and S was v quiet (we have snow issues) and I was in the maternity clothes bit, which isnt clearly flagged as such. And a woman who clearly wasnt pregnant - was in her sixties - located a cardi she liked and put it on. She said to her friend 'I must have lost weight, the 14 fits, usually I'm a 16', and off she went to buy it. I didnt dare tell her it had 'maternity' written on the label... If it made her feel good about herself...

Oy, Tree, eat!

And I am envious of your posh PJs.

OMG, what was I on about? Sorry Cant, why did I think I had read that you were bookin gin next week I hate it when I mix people up. It is so not OK. Of course I now completely rememeber the booking in and the midwife who wan't nice.

Why can't I retain information??????

26 weeks. You still able to hide under a cardi. I couldn't hide under a blooming duvet by then so my big-up respect if that is so.

Now Cant I hope I haven't offended you by saying you seem calm. That could be annoying when you are screaming inside. I know there is no way on earth you can be calm really, but your writing always comes over in such a clear minded way. And I hope you don't think I have a dim view of the Mammas and Papas dreamy shopping in pregnancy experience. I did plenty of it myself .
What you say about making space for newbies and whoever when ever is very very true. We also need to make room for the pregnant, being pregnant after the trauma needs and outlet too. Getting pregnant doesn't cure the pain does it.

I think the ideal might be a thread where each post has two tabs. Which I have never ever seen anywhere. So people could read which ppost they wanted.

I somehow don't like to think of us splitting the thread, am I just being sentimental?

I have done that, what that lady did Got home and saw the maternity label and thought 'hmmm, maybe not a size 14 afterall' It's a bummer but highly amusing.

It's me that's booking in later, mainly because everything kicked off at my booking appointment last time... I'm booking at the end of Jan and have my 20wk scan at the start of Feb. And re Patau's/Edwards, I had a nuchal scan this time (they don't do it routinely here, but do offer it to people who've been through prior diagnosis) and the results were less than 1:20,000 for either Edawrds or Patau's, and something like 1:3,000 for DS. So that, along with reassuring scan this week means I'm happier about booking in now. They've been v supportive of me all along, although sadly I'm feeling better about booking in at another hospital because while I had DS at the one that's closing, I also had Iola there so now it has different memories.

Tree, you could never offend anyone. You are the calm peacemaker here.

I am rational, I think, rather than calm. I have an ordered sort of mind, and I like things to be tidy in my head. Shame about my house, which is a pigsty. Oh and the Mamas and Papas thing - I'm so over that. Actually it wasn't trauma that distanced me from that, it was the fact that my beautifully coordinating cream/beige nursery and toys were (ssshhh) kind of boring. And DD preferred plastic and bright things. But I do now feel resentful, I think, of pregnancies I perceive to be easy (which is irrational, given that my first one was!). And I sort of associate mooching around Mamas and Papas debating between pale cream and dark cream with easy pregnancy...

Oh sadly I can no longer hide under a cardi. I have bump envy as well as easy pregnancy envy - I don't have that amazing gravity-defying football shape with the rest of me svelte that some women get. I am becoming - barrel shaped. Since I am small, this is most unattractive. But I am not, ever, complaining.

I will never take pregnancy for granted.

Justa, been reading between the lines. It's very interesting from an outside point of view actually. I am in a profession with high stress levels apparently, but my line managers have always been lovely. No bullying to be seen. Lucky.

Ha that is so funny Can't. Cream in our life seems to have been replaced with many coloured bunting and lumps of plastic that flash and sing at you when you go for a 4am wee. We got dd2 these wooden water blocks at huge expense for Christmas. Might get her some pringles for her birthday

And hopefully playroom [shortly to be excavated from the shite tip back room/old kitchen] will house the washer in a red glossy Ikea kitchen type unit thing of my own invention. I'd have fainted at the thought prekids.

You are very kind to say those things, I am always scared that I will so great harm and/or make a tit of myself.

Hmm, yes.....no, not really selling that to us Justa. Makes NHS sound like a land of team building spa breaks and Christmas bonuses.

I'm now feeling that I should go to church tomorrow to support my lovely minister (in our very empty church!) He's ab fab, but not traditionalist (probably shares similar views to yourself, Justa) and has had a few battles with superiors... but I think church of scotland structure is different. Not better, not worse, but different.

Was planning on doing lots of cooking though, will have to figure out how to fit all in...

That's encouraging justa, I always asumed they looked and thought . My own guilt surfacing.

Do you get spa breaks and bonuses?

Thanks for explaining, Justa. I found the press interest quite intriguing as a friend of mine is married to a C of E vicar. I don't think they've had issues with the Church itself, more with the congregation, which has been mainly composed of elderly ladies hero-worshopping her husband and a bit shocked that she goes out to work. So shocked that they used to bring him food round! Also every time she didnt go to church, they assumed she was pregnant and had morning sickness and would look pointedly at her tummy when they next saw her and ask if she had any news. Very funny - they meant well but they were just TOO interested. She has a baby now so I bet they are over the moon.

The process of applying for jobs sounded somewhat arcane from the newspaper articles. Amazed it's legal, actually.

I have never had a spa break or a bonus. Hmm. I am not so bothered about the spa break. Wouldnt mind the bonus though.