To think the behaviour of these mothers is shocking and they bloody well deserve a slap?

[SassySusan]

Message deleted

sassy

yes it hurts.. of course it hurts.. its gonna hurt for a long long while

of course when a mother says oh for gods sake I am fed cleaning up my dd's mess , you are going to think well at least your daughter is here for you to moan about-mine is dead

I thought it too for a long while... now i complain long and hard about how hard work ds2 is ... I know its wrong I know it makes me a hypcorite and I know I should be thanking God every day that he is here to make the mess. I do feel really guilty

does that make any sense

and ffs stop asking if the op is genuine.. one look at the bereaved mummies thread will tell you that she is !!!

Just because some of you have never lost a child doesnt mean sassy is making it up

Sassy,
I think it's good that you started this thread, because it makes people like me understand how a person bereaving the loss of a child would prefer to be approached.

I might be the type of person to mention the sunny day, not because I don't care but because I wouldn't want to draw attention to the elephant in the living room and put you on the spot when you might not want to talk about it.

I think that we've lost a lot of our cultural cues on how to behave. In the past there would have been a more strict etiquette and people would know what to do without appearing tactless.

My condolences on the loss of your daughter. XX

Sassy, there is no symmetry. Your little girl is lucky to have had such a loving mum. You express your thoughts and feelings very eloquently. I'm sure those of us who have read this thread think of you often. I'm so sorry.

Sassy- I am so sorry for your loss. YANBU. Saying stupid things or not saying anything at all is selfishness. The 'I don't know what to say' excuse is basically saying that the person doesn't want the social embarassment of saying something wrong. As if social embrassment matters at all in this case. When my sister died (she was in her early 20s), several people asked my mum if she had any children, and when my mum said no, said 'well that must make it better then'. WTF? I lost two good friends after she died as they didn't contact me becuase they didn't know what to say. Even if they had rung and said 'we don't know why to say' that would have been enough.

Of course, there is nothing to say. And no words will make things better. But it's the acknowledgment of your loss and pain that's important and people around you giving you the space to talk about your daughter and to remember her with you. Every additional memory is so precious.

Sassy,
"I think it's good that you started this thread, because it makes people like me understand how a person bereaving the loss of a child would prefer to be approached"

But all people are different and what is right for Sassy may not be right for someone else. A very good friend of mine can't talk about death at all, when her brother died she couldn't even bring herself to tell us, and I knew very well not to mention it.

When I was in hospital having DS I met a lady whose baby died at birth while I was there. I kept in touch with her and when I finally came out of hospital she wanted me to bring my baby to visit her. Now I am sure some people who had lost a baby just a few weeks would not want to be anywhere near another baby, but she was quite happy to meet mine and give him a cuddle.She said to me that she was not worried about other peoples babies, she just wanted hers

Sassy, I really feel for you.

Yesterday I bumped into an aquaintance who lost her 17 year old son in February.

At the time I sent her flowers but haven't seen her since.

I hugged her and said "I'm so sorry I have been thinking of you and the little ones".

We then sat down and had coffee and she talked about the whole family and how they were all surviving in their own way. Her five year old was her big concern and her 14 year old has only just gone back to school because she just couldn't cope with the loss of her big brother.

She also gave me a bookmark that had been made in his memory.

I like to think that her heart was a little bit lighter when we parted and we have arranged to meet up again for coffee next week.

It doesn't take much to give up some time to spend with a person who has had such a terrible loss.

Message deleted

Sassy - are you getting any support with grief counselling? There are some brilliant organisations out there who can help.

My cousin died when he was 20. I was 23. I told my Uncle I was sorry, and he growled at me 'Why? Did you kill him?'. I took it on the chin, said I was sorry that my cousin was gone, sorry that I'd never see him again, and sorry that my Uncle had to bear this horrendous grief. He walked out. I wasn't offended, or even concerned about my own feelings. He had just lost his son. Quite frankly, if he had slapped me I'd have wiped it from our history. There is/was no 'right' thing to say, but there are 'wrong' things (comparing the loss of a child to the loss of your pet, ffs). I believe saying nothing, though, is deeply insensitive. Much better to aknowledge the loss and potentially get a mouthful than pretend that the dead person never existed. If you unwittingly cause offence, you can apologise.

I am so very sorry that you have to live without Catherine, Sassy. YANBU to be pissed off that you're expected to tip toe around other people's sensibilities. Quite frankly, fuck them.

some people are just ignorant and self absorbed sassy.

i do think there is a bit of a tendency on MN to go against whatever the OP is feeling, regardless of the subject matter... i doubt the poster in question would actually moan about her child if she met you in real life.

i have very little experience first hand of real loss. grandparents dying in old age isn't the same thing at all as losing a child, so i can only imagine how painful it is to come up against such unfeeling comments.

i hope you have lots of support?

I think what needs accepting is that people ARE self centred and absorbed and yes I will hold my hands up and say my family are my most precious priority and take precedence over anything or anybody.

I feel sad for others who suffer illness, death, poverty and for everything else thats bad in the world but I am grateful that my own family is at that moment protected and safe - its not because I am a bad person - its human nature and protective instinct.

Sassy, prior to your daughters death, would you have known what to say or do to someone who was grieving for their child? Can you be 100% sure that whatever you may say or do will not cause offence? What offends me may not offend the next person and vice versa. Who can really tell, unless told, that what they have said is wrong (or right)?

Yes, there are some token fuckwits out there in the world who really have no social skills and manage to say the wrong thing on purpose but in the main I do think some comments are meant well but can obviously be misinterpreted due to heightened senses and emotions of the grieving person.

Grief is a very, very personal emotion and can take many forms. There is no right or wrong way. Some people grieve with anger, bitterness and guilt, others grieve with calm, peace and acceptance and so on. Actions that seem bizarre to some, may comfort others greatly.

I hope you understand my post and that it doesnt offend - I am not entirely eloquent at times.

I think there are a huge number of people who have never in their lives experienced a truly life shattering event and so they have no reference point.
So instead of truly being able to empathise they treat the events closest within their own experience and use that as a kind of sliding scale of reference...so they think
'well I remember when I lost my lovely auntie and i felt so sad butwe had a lovely wake and it made me feel better so I think maybe that would help. Plus we all talked about how important it was to move on so being positive and encouraging this person to move on, by chnaging the subject or talking about holidays would be a kindthing to do'

Of course there are also those who have the sense to think 'I have no notion of the living nightmarethis must be so I will just try to say something that registers that I understand that'

But the 'oh well, at least it was sunny for the funeral' types don't really mean it. they just don't know what they don't know IYSWIM.

I know it is not on the same page in terms of experiences but when DS2 was diagnosed people seemed embaressed and I could almost feel them wanting me to not talk about it.

We like that which is familiar. we don't like feeling awkward as it makes us feel vulnerable.

Some friends were due to have theirfirst baby on the same day as DD was born but their darling girl did not survive the day. Tryingto find anything to say to them was so hard. But we did try and we remain close friends so I have tried to remember the things I learnt from that experience.

Life is so fucking hard at times and so fucking unfair. But we have to try and find a way to just be kind to each other.

Sorry -I know I am trite sounding but this thread is so sad...

sorry sassy obv didnt read your post properly

you are absolutley right.. no two ways about it .. if someone had done that to me I would have ended up shouting at them and probs walking out!

I hope you know me well enough from other threads to know I am truly on your side with this .. and the last thing I want to do is upset you ..

sending you [hhhhuuuuggss]

Hi,

Sassy I just wanted to say that I agree with you about PrammyMummy's words. There is no quid pro quo given what you have been through. Those with moans about healthy children should find other people to moan at, of course.

However reading this thread also made me think of how in many of the long conversations I had with my sister after her stillbirth she told me what i was saying wasn't helping. If I can say the wrong thing to my sister, how much easier to to do that with someone I know less well. I like to think I'm quite good at empathy and stuff, but I don't know.

I've been thinking of you and your dreadful loss a lot. x

tholeon - I appreciate that someone may not want to hear about another person's children so soon after losing a child, but at some point, if you consciously avoid talking to a friend about things such as family/children etc, surely that friendship would just wither and die?

What I mean is, at some point, if the friendship is to continue, that friend surely will end up talking about things in their life. And that includes their children and everyday family life.

Surely being excluded forever from any such conversation would be extraordinarily hurtful to some.

I;ve been thinking about you too...and can't get this thread out of my head.

I still truely believe the majority of people are well-intentioned, with the odd idiot out there

As has been said a few times, all people deal with grief in different ways. What helps one may be completely unacceptable to others, or at different stages of grief. ~I think it's thought and effort that is important. And real, true friends will understand, and be there for you no matter what.

Not condoning anyone's actions specifically, but we don't know what 'losses' others have experienced either....whos to say the lady that wishes you a nice weekend hasn't lost her own children?

I've left playgroup today because some mums were looking at another mums 20 week scan pic....its 3 years since i lost dd at 20 weeks, and have since had 2xds but i could't face it. I may have looked disinterested to them and a right grumpy cow, but i was close to tears so left. They don;t know my history....

For all the bereaved mummies, you are in my thoughts and i hope i haven't offended anyone with my comments...lifes shit sometimes, it really is

I also think its not what has been said but the shere timing of these comments.

Hi

I don't think I meant forever. But certainly while the grief is raw. My sister couldn't hold my (long awaited, ivf - not relevant really) baby for a year after he was born, I understood that. You kind of have to find a way in each situation and friendship, I guess. Not avoiding anything about your own life and chldren for ever,

But no, of course I wouldn't moan about sleepless nights or toddler trantrums or whatever at a friend who had recently lost a child. Maybe that's not what PrammyMummy meant, but it sounded from her post as though she did.

tholeon

how is your relationship with your sister now??

I ask because I remember screaming at my mother that she didnt understand and she wasnt helping... but I really now cant remember what she said to invoke such a reaction

looking back now (my ds was stillborn 6 years ago) all I can remember is her holding my hand while i cried and cried and cried

Sassy, I lost my beloved dad a few months ago. My mum was with him for over 50 years and they were in love and the very best of friends all that time. She's found one of the hardest things to bear has been other people's insensitivity about her devastating loss.

Grieving is a terrible education. Of those people who haven't been touched by it, only the very best - the most sincere and sensitive, are able to respond from the heart. Most of us can't rise to the challenge.

For sure, whilst the death is very recent, its just crass and insensitive.

And the Bear Hunt song just beggars belief.

But with some of the other comments, its harder to completely condemn them - things like "I'm sorry for your loss" - to some people, that's a completely appropriate thing to have said to them, especially if its by someone who neither know you or the recently deceased person very well. I for one would have found any more emotional or personal comment from some people deeply intrusive, but appreciated it from those who didn't know me so well, but wanted to simply acknowledge that something awful had happened and that they recognised I was grieving.

Ditto some of the religious-type comments - some find them very very comforting to think that their loved ones are still in some way around, be that in heaven or nirvana.

And the footprints poem - some hate it, some don't.

And if anyone had dared just turn up at my door uninvited to cook, clean etc, I think I would have throttled them - I am a very private person, and I would have found it hugely intrusive not to ask me first.

So it is very very much down to the indivual.

The need to say something, however, I think is a given. Also to not avoid those who are grieving when they try and make contact. And to acknowledge and apologise when something insensitive is said and done, and understand if that person isn't in a place to forgive you for it immediately. Its human behaviour to say and do dumb things sometimes, and its also human behaviour to be as mad as hell about what has happened to you and lash out at all and sundry when in the raw stages of grieving.

Message deleted

Message deleted

what you say is of course true sassy. there for the grace of god go i.

i work for out of hours emergency services and deal with death and medical emergencies. it's made me feel extraordinarily grateful for what i have. if you're in scotland we have a listening service called breathing space if you ever just need to talk about what's happened.

tel 0800 83 85 87

"The 'I don't know what to say' excuse is basically saying that the person doesn't want the social embarassment of saying something wrong. "

Sorry, suchanamateur, you posted this right after I said I sometimes didn't know what to say, so I just wanted to clarify that often the person does care a lot about the feelings of the bereaved but thinks that maybe saying the wrong thing might upset them. As pagwatch said, it's the lack of reference. Most people have never experienced what the OP is going through.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with social embarassment.
For example I might feel a natural impulse to give the mother a hug, but I would stifle it in case it wasn't my place to be so personal. I might think the mother be only just holding it together in public and a random person entering their personal space might not be welcomed.
Although it's true that there definitely are tactless and insensitive people out there.

Sassy, as I said, I'm glad you posted this topic and it has made me think it would be better to be forthcoming with a bereaved person in future and offer more comfort rather than hold back.