To feel annoyed trees were cut down to print this anti-breastfeeding article

[cherrymama]

In the latest edition of Mother and Baby magazine (I bought it for the free gift) the deputy editor has an article about breastfeeding. In it she says that she "couldn't be fagged" to breastfeed and that breastfeeding her newborn using breasts that had previously been used for sex would feel "creepy". And that even the health benefits of breastfeeding "wouldn't induce her to stick her nipple in her bawling baby's mouth."

I think her attitude is horrible! I understand many people try to breastfeed and don't manage, but to say that it is creepy is another thing.

"I see a parallel in the feelings of new dads 50 years ago: many fathers were MORTIFIED by the thought of doing things like changing nappies or pushing a pram. I suspect they saw it as a challenge to their masculinity."

This isn't necessarily true. The myth of the Victorian Dad, or the distant, strict disciplinarian/violent father is something promulgated by the temperance movement.

Yes, it was less common for fathers to get so involved but many, many fathers were active in child care.

There was a great series on BBC about myths of fatherhood this century with people in their 90s recounting how involved and caring fathers were, despite working down t'pit.

Just an observation - the more I read curryfreak's posts the more I think she is trying to be ironic.

Just to let you know that you are failing miserably, honey and some of us are getting increasingly annoyed.

I think it's high time people excepted that some women hate bf because they find it horrible(myself included).

It's nothing to do with society it bloody hurts,the leaking,the continually being welded to the sofa and the feeling of being leached off(I could go on) some women just don't like it end of story. It's nothing to do with society it's just having tried it many women(myself included) find out it's not the lovely experience it's often made out to be and they can't hack it.

Pre dc I was very pro bf(still am)if you can manage it but having tried it I hated it every single minute of it.

We now live in a modern age and developed country with safe formula,clean water and excellent steralising equipment.Women have discovered they don't have to bf anymore. That is what the bfing lobby are up against not some party of society making dumb stupid women think their breasts are just for sex.

And if we're going to muzzle women against admitting to ff(and liking it) are we going to be stopping mums from admitting to screen time and liking the break they get? Are we going to be stopping women from admitting to feeding their dc convienience food and liking the convenience it gives?

To

"It's nothing to do with society it bloody hurts,the leaking,the continually being welded to the sofa and the feeling of being leached off(I could go on) some women just don't like it end of story."

The vast majority of women who 'don't like it' have NO experience of normal, established breastfeeding. It's kind of coming back from France complaining about what a god-awful country it is when you've never got further than the airport. Pain, being glued to the sofa and feeling overwhelmed by the intensity of your baby's physical need for you (what I assume you mean by feeling 'leeched off') is really not representative of normal, established breastfeeding. Not at all.

And there are lots of aspects of parenting that are hard. I personally find doing homework with my kids about as pleasant as pulling teeth, but accept that it needs to be done and it's important for them in both the short and the long term - like breastfeeding.

"It's nothing to do with society it's just having tried it many women(myself included) find out it's not the lovely experience it's often made out to be and they can't hack it".

Again - you have to ask yourself, what is unique to some Western countries that so many women have such emotional and physical difficulties with breastfeeding - it's not a universal thing so it can't be something intrinsic to breastfeeding, but must have more to do with the way breastfeeding is managed.

@giveit to me baby....

I was being ironic about the power of the breastfeeding lobby.

I think all this 'freedom of speech' stuff is interesting insofar as it seems to be exclusively coming from people who then go on to moan about the breastfeeding lobby. She is of course free to speak. Just as I am free to come on here and say she's a bloody idiot.

if it weren't for the FFing culture, and the idea that breasts are for blokes to gawp at, nobody would see the natural process of feeding your baby with breasts as "being leeched off"!

I agree women need better teaching and support but to infer many don't do it because they've been brain washed into thinking their breasts are just sexual objects really does portray all of us as simply dumb,it's very patronising.

Rubbish maths I felt leeched off because I had 2 tiny babies 24/7 shredding by boobs to pieces. Sex couldn't have been further from my mind.

And when you start to think of your newborn babies as leeches it's time to stop.

nobody is saying that all women are dumb or that all women are taken in by the media obsession with boobs - but the media message does exist and it's naive to think otherwise

Timefor I have yet to see curryfreak ever post anything intelligent, constructive or helful on any thread . He/she/it is a PITA.

I don't agree.

Where exactly is this message being given out and turning the vast majority (that's millions)of new mums onto formula?

To call women naive is just ,do we not have brains enough to see through the supposed media message and make our own minds up as to what is best for our babies,in the same way we make every other parenting decision?

I didn't mean you were thinking about sex I just meant that hundreds of years ago it was understood that breasts were for feeding babies (which isn't so much understood now) - and that the pain/problems such as those you experienced were a normal part of that, which would be overcome in time rather than 'being leeched off' i.e. a problem.

needless to say I'm not belittling your experience at all. Probably not wording all this very well

Saying infant feeding attitudes are culturally and socially mediated is nothing to do with being brain washed. Nothing to do with seeing people as dumb. Nothing to do with being patronising.

Attitudes to infant feeding are affected by time and place. Why wouldn't this be the case? All aspects of caring for a baby are affected this way - otherwise every country/social grouping at every time in history would care for their infants in identical ways.

Breastfeeding can be painful - if you are very unlucky it can excruciating. This is not a general experience. Yes, some women find bf a horrible experience - you, for instance, MilaMae. I don't think anyone sensible fails to accept this, or fails to understand why this sort of pain would mean a switch to the bottle.

What is at issue here is the attitude expressed in the article which has very little to do with the sort of extreme pain you experienced, and everything to do with some pretty specific, culture-bound notions of what breasts are for - I gather this author feels they are for her sexual partner, primarily, and nothing else.

MilaMae - what stopped you breastfeeding was the pain. What stopped this author breastfeeding was her inability to think of her breasts in a biologically normal way. And you think you have something in common with her? Really?

again. I'm not calling all women naive! e.g. - you wanted to BF, and tried to. you knew that BF is good and that that is what boobs are for. yours is a very different situation to the writer of the article who didn't even want to try, lest she ruin her 'funbags', and didn't want a baby suckling where her OH had previously been

Not running off,got to go,back later will answer then

timeforanewwan,- i'm really scared

Maybe her husband is a lactation fantasist, who has a good old suckle, and that's why she finds it creepy.

I just cannot confuse a baby feeding and a man suck on a nipple as part of sex play. Two very, very different things.

It's not a good comparison, but sex isn't like having a speculum inserted (unless you're doing it wrong). I think most normal people can tell the difference.

The woman probably doesn't feel like this at all. She's just being an 'irritant'. A very good one judging by the blogosphere shitstorm.

"To call women naive is just ,do we not have brains enough to see through the supposed media message and make our own minds up as to what is best for our babies"

If this were true you'd get similar breastfeeding rates across all groups. Actually the reality is that what most impacts on whether you think breastfeeding is 'right' for your baby is your age, your social class, your ethnicity and where you live.

If breastfeeding is best for the son of a doctor (95% of doctors breastfeed) then why isn't it generally also best for the child of an uneducated woman who has never worked?

And why is it that women who have never been exposed to normal breastfeeding are so much more likely to feel that breastfeeding 'isn't 'right' for them and their baby?

Women don't generally make rational, well informed and free choices about how to feed their baby. They make the choices they're conditioned to make. And most people are not well educated about how breastfeeding actually works, or the differences found between the health of bf and ff babies.

Part of the problem with the article is that it does nothing to support ff women either. It's moronic. If I wasn't so cross (and if I wasn't breastfeeding as I type) I'd find something more useful to do like rearrange my toiletries alphabetically.

"I cannot confuse a baby feeding and a man suck on a nipple as part of sex play.."

Finally!! - someone dare speak on the subject.

Yes, enjoying your breasts when sexually making love is quite separate from maternal pleasure.

Supposing some (or many mothers) have conflicting emotions about integrating the two. Can they talk about it?

exactly giveittome - like the woman who wrote the article - she says it was her own choice, but (and I know this sounds patronising) she was conditioned to make that choice by upbringing and the surrounding culture. if she'd been born, exactly the same biologically, but in a different country - say, a scandinavian one - she'd have probably BFed with no second thought to it.

I think people just don't like to admit this cultural influence thing, it scares people to think they aren't totally in control of their own thoughts!

must dash, 10mth old DS has unravelled and shredded the kitchen roll

Of course they can talk about it.

I had a phobia of natural childbirth because I had been raped. I actually planned to have an elective section (easier to do in Asia, where I was posted at the time) and got ALL SORTS OF FLAK YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE off a variety of forum loons and insensitive friends.

As it happened, I got over myself (my phrasing as actually I'd built it up in my mind a bit too far) and planned a natural birth. Sadly breech position and preeclampsia necessitated a quick early section. Which was fine.

I totally respect that many women, including a couple of my friends, have deep-seated conflicted feelings about mothering and breastfeeding that can stem from all sorts of societal constraints, family circumstances, and in a few cases, sexual pressure and abuse.

Of course women should be able to express (sorry ) their misgivings.

But this women, for example, is a silly, irresponsible twat.

@otchayaniye - sorry to hear that. Very brave of you to share that as well.

So, you're saying it's a good thing to share conflicted feelings about breastfeeding.

How was this editor irresponsible - was it in her crude terminology?

yes I think so - "couldn't be fagged" for example is also putting a bad light on other FFers whose reasons for FFing were not laziness!

and things like not wanting her boobs round her waist when it is established that BFing does not make them sag. silly woman (journo, not you!)

Having read the article I actually think it was a brave,honest piece.

The author is different to me but she had several reasons for ffing and they are all her reasons about her body.

I wouldn't have dreamt of not attempting to bf but I'd never begrudge a woman with opposite views to have her say or to discuss the subject.

She mentioned the good reasons for bfing and made several good points about ffing being perfectly ok.

Sorry but I still don't think nobody has a right to muzzle her views re bfing (or ffing) anymore than they have the right to muzzle her views on any other aspect of parenting which have great benefits to children(and there are plenty).

To be honest I think if there was far more honest decent discussion like this it would be most beneficial-far to much re ff is swept under the carpet and many mums don't feel they have a voice or their views count.