To feel annoyed trees were cut down to print this anti-breastfeeding article

[cherrymama]

In the latest edition of Mother and Baby magazine (I bought it for the free gift) the deputy editor has an article about breastfeeding. In it she says that she "couldn't be fagged" to breastfeed and that breastfeeding her newborn using breasts that had previously been used for sex would feel "creepy". And that even the health benefits of breastfeeding "wouldn't induce her to stick her nipple in her bawling baby's mouth."

I think her attitude is horrible! I understand many people try to breastfeed and don't manage, but to say that it is creepy is another thing.

tiktok

I think you have been consistently reasonable and courteous on this thread (as have many others, whether FFers or BFers).

tiktok
You and your extremist ilk have railroaded and dominated this discussion with highhanded disregard for anyone else's feelings. Sure is good to have a keyboard to hide behind, isn't it? I wasn't asking for your name, address and NI number, I merely asked for nonspecific information on what else you may do apart from harangue others on Mumsnet. It is, of course, your right not to share even the most general detail of how you make a difference in this world and I stand corrected.{confused}

Ta, olifin - I try to be polite, and I don't use unpleasant or nasty words to describe people, but I am aware there is sometimes a steely thread, a brittle tone, to my posts when someone is being especially or deliberately hyperbolic, chippy, intransigent or accuses me of saying things I haven't said.

And that's what (I think) some people think is 'patronising'.

If I was a lot ruder or insulting, then I prob wouldn't sound so patronising

???? desanimaux - none of my posts here disregard people's feelings. Feelings are an integral part of the infant feeding experience.

I have not harangued you, or anyone else.

Not once.

If you read my posts, you'll see I acknowledge feelings all the time. I have expressed concern about the effect on people's feelings of the article that inspired this thread - not just the feelings of breastfeeding women, but also the feelings of formula feeding women.

tiktok I also think you have been courteous, well informed and reasonable in your comments on this thread. The real issue is that some people don't like what you are saying, which is the crux of the ff/bf debate.

For the record and before I too get lynched - I have both ff and bf, but I'm a passionate bf supporter because I truly believe almost all mothers can bf if given the right support (obviously not all, especially where there are other medical complications - this comment is in no way aimed at any individual). I also believe passionately that women should have a right to chose how to feed their baby, but based on UNBIASED information which at the moment is just not available for formula.

Desanimaux, I've been on mumsnet for years and can assure you that Tiktok is one of the 'good guys', a fully paid up member of the mumsnet royalty [genuflects clumsily].

You wont get much support for any attacks on her morals or style. There are too many of us here who have witnessed scores of weepily grateful responses from new mums who've benefited from her advice and insights into breastfeeding

[apologies for shameless brown-nosing but it does need to be said]

GL4dys; I totally agree with your first paragraph there.

desanimaux Where has tiktok (or anyone) harangued you on this thread?

Thanks, Gl4dys.

But this thread should not be about me - please can we change the subject?!

(though happy to read where any evidence I have shared has been 'spurious' so I can explain why it isn't! )

And a large sloppy kiss to giveittome

Just out of interest, has anyone complained about the article to the mag?

des - I do not see the things you complain of in tiktok's posts.

"extremist ilk " appears to be people who think bfing is a good thing and to be encouraged

Oh yes well none of you would see the thinks in tiktok posts that those whom believe in free-choice about feeding children do BECAUSE YOU AGREE WITH HER!!!!!

oops 'things' {note to self don't MN on phone when fingerpainting}

Bit of confusion down below I think raised by ChuckBartowski.

Carnation brand(Nestle) makes condensed milk and evaporated milk.

Condensed milk is mostly sugar and a drop of milk. It is definitely not good to feed babies. Lots of people in the tropics still use it to sweeten coffee and tea. (and if you simmer a can of it in a pot of water for a couple hours it caramelises).

Evaporated milk is more like thickened cow's milk and is what was used instead of infant formula.

ticktockclock - whilst I think this thread has got completely derailed by an unnecessary debate about TikTok, which I for one don't want to prolong, in my own defence I have to say that even though I agree with TikTok's views, I'm fair-minded and honest enough to be able to deduce whether she's made any 'alarmist claptrap' comments - and I can't see a single comment of hers that could be accurately classed as that.

Alarmist claptrap is a very different thing to being pro-bf.

And anyway, being pro-bf isn't the same as being anti-ff.

"those whom believe in free-choice about feeding children"

Hands up anyone here who thinks that women should NOT be able to freely choose how to feed their babies?

Come on..... [taps foot impatiently]

Anyone?

[tumbleweed blows slowly across empty silent wastes of cyberspace]

'Tis weird, giveittome. I have said more than once on this thread that women should have free choice (I can't imagine what awful situation would have to be imposed for this not to be the case!). And yet ticktockclock persists in thinking that people who agree with me think women should not have free choice....

I've not read 20 pages, but thought I'd add to the list of people confused by the writer's attitude.

Although, it does seem to be a common view that breasts are somehow more sexual than the rest of the body. It's why exposed female nipples count as nudity while male ones don't, isn't it? Because the female chest is seen as a primarily sexual object.

Apparently there's more nerves per area of skin surface in the human ear than in the breast. And I'm fine with using my ears both in a sexual and ordinary context. (Hey, I even let people see them in public!)

eg my post at 08.54.51

Desi - are you reading different posts in another dimension that the rest of us cannot see? Because along with the other posters, not once have I seen any of tiktoks posts do what you accuse her of doing. I suggest that you also have ishoos, and please don't take them out on one person here (a person who has supported a lot of people, myself included, through the rough patches of bfeeding)

Ryoko - if your point about money and bfeeding was true, then it would actually be the opposite. Working class would breastfeed since it is actually cheaper. And the middle classes would fork out exponential sums on formula a) because we can afford it b) because we can also afford nannies and leave our babies with them whilst we pootle off to our pilates classes and skinny lattes!

Why the FF brigade feel so bullied is beyond me! You are in the majority - in this country, FF is the most socially acceptable way of feeding your baby to a lot of people.
Out of all my (equally middle class intelligent) friends, I am one of a few who got past 12 weeks. Believe you me, if anyone could feel sidelined, it would be me!

indeed. FF is the culturally accepted, television-advertised norm (forumla mfacturer advertising budgets oustrips the NHS pro-BF budget tenfold)...

if someone wrote an article saying FF was 'creepy' in a mother & baby mag they would be publically pilloried.

there is a double standard - any attempt to promote BF is instantly dismissed as 'guilt-inducing', 'trying to make Mums feel bad', 'goody-two shoes' , 'BF-Nazism!' A standard that is not applied to other public health campaigns (do we say 'five-a-day' is just trying to make people feel crap about their eating habits? Do we say 'moderate drinking' campaigns are trying to make booze-hounds feel guilty? Or do we think they are there to encourage informed choice?)

All whilst forumla is promoted on national television!

anyway, was going to say that ysterday morning, but the machine wasn't letting me post.

good point about money mistletoe - the HV running our training course said when she visited Pakistan, her family/friends who lived there were amazed she was BFing. They were all FFing - it was the 'in thing' to do there, it meant you had money! And in particular they were amazed that she was BFing even though she was from a Westernised culture (Manchester I believe! )

Liking the name englandallenpoe. And good post, totally agree.

Have another point to add as some of the posts on here have really wound me up. I do wish that some of the posters on here would stopping acting as though they are 'victims' of those organisations who promote bfeeding.

We all have choices. I had a choice when pregnanct with DS1, elec cs or natural birth? Despite best efforts from NCT etc. I went with elec cs. Did I feel guilty? Nope. Did I feel bullied? Nope. They presented the facts, it was my choice to make. The facts are that an uncomplicated vaginal delivery is better for both mother and child. I made a choice that went against what was 'best' for my baby. I have my reasons, just as those who choose to ff have theirs. But I dont sit here and bash NCT / other organisations/ individuals who promote natural birth. I take responsibility for the choice I made. And for the possible implications of that choice.

So those who FF their DC's, take responsibility for your choices! FACT - bfeeding is better for your DC! It is a fact. Nothing you say on here changes that. But enough with the so called 'bullying' from bfeeding supporters.

Grow a pair already. FFS!

Yes,madmathsmummy,that was the point I was trying to make.Also as the poster above has said bf is free,so for lower income women to be more likely to ff seems really sad,as that's the group who can least afford it. I have moved from North London,where there was a lot of visible bf,but also huge class divide re bf,to West Wales where I have only seen one woman bf in public in two years.There is no true freedom of choice for most women,there is just peer prssure on one side and a lack of support on the other.

Mathsmadmummy - my mum was saying the same. In India, a lot of the middle class there now ff. It is seen as the more 'trendy' thing to do. Bfeeding is perceived to be the domain of the poor. Speaking from my experience (first generation born here); my mothers/ aunts etc all bfed their DC's. When they arrived here, they didnt have the disposable income to do otherwise, and back then it was the 'natural' thing to do.
My generation have grown up surrounded by women bfeeding. Through all the research we know that breast is best. That combined with a good support network around us has resulted in every female bfeeding. I kid you not, in my whole extended family (and I have lot of first/ second cousins), every woman has bfed her baby. I find it really interesting.