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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel annoyed trees were cut down to print this anti-breastfeeding article

607 replies

cherrymama · 21/06/2010 14:16

In the latest edition of Mother and Baby magazine (I bought it for the free gift) the deputy editor has an article about breastfeeding. In it she says that she "couldn't be fagged" to breastfeed and that breastfeeding her newborn using breasts that had previously been used for sex would feel "creepy". And that even the health benefits of breastfeeding "wouldn't induce her to stick her nipple in her bawling baby's mouth."

I think her attitude is horrible! I understand many people try to breastfeed and don't manage, but to say that it is creepy is another thing.

OP posts:
BongoWinslow · 23/06/2010 09:48

On the freedom of speech point, it seems to me that the distinction to make is between:

a) my right to say what I want

and

b) whether I should be held accountable for the consequences of my words

Obviously we should all be entitled to say what we want, when we want. So if this woman in the article wants to say "I thought breast feeding seemed creepy", she's completely entitled to do so. But if her words have consequences, in some cases that right might be curtailed - as it is with libel, slander, hate speech, racial vilification etc etc.

For me, it's up to her to choose how she feeds her baby, but I think it's sad her reason is that she thinks BF is 'creepy' because it suggests she has a rather limited relationship with her body. It seems she just thinks her breasts have one function, one status rather than at least two - sexual (for her partner and herself) and nurturing (for her baby). I'm sure many of us have had/will have to navigate that complexity, and how we do so is our business, but I think the problem with her approach is that instead of engaging with the complexity of having her once solely-sexual breasts take on a new role, she childishly just says "yuck, shan't, won't!". That, for me, is the problem with her attitude.

I don't think she's denigrating breast feeding in general, she's just saying it isn't for her... in a rather immature way.

But the real issue is whether it's true that by saying what she said in a public forum in that tone, it will have an unacceptable impact on other women - namely, putting them off breast-feeding for uninformed reasons (which seems to be the heart of much of the debate here).

Of course women can choose and should choose how they feed, and FF is a legitimate choice open to women (even if one thinks it's not the best choice, it's still a legitimate one for women living in the UK in 2010). The problem is where they make that choice on the basis of someone putting them off not because they've presented good reasons, but because they've fed some ill-founded aversion. And I do think 'creepiness' is an ill-founded aversion. Many women might feel something like this, but it's not a good basis on which to make a choice about your baby's health. That doesn't mean I don't think women shouldn't decide for personal reasons that they don't want to BF, but I do think if they're going to do that, because of the possible impact on another person (the baby) they should think a bit harder than merely indulging a 'yuck' reaction. If it's still not for them, fine. I don't even think their reasons have to be 'good' - whatever that means - they just need to have been thought through.

But the main reason I don't have a problem with the article (apart from thinking this woman is a twit) is I don't think it's that convincing to say it will put many women off BF. Knowing that someone else finds it 'creepy' has no impact on my views. But I can imagine that for someone impressionable, who's maybe young and/or who isn't well informed and doesn't have support or good examples around her, then it might. I guess if someone was already unsure, hearing someone else say "well, I think it's icky!" might tip the balance. But I'd expect in general, most pregnant women are hopefully receiving plenty of other good advice from their doctors, midwives and health visitors that would offset this. That, and the fact that most women want to do the best for their babies and make the best choices they can, I doubt this article's impact would be very significant. Apart from making this woman look like a bit of a git.

That said, M&B probably should have mitigated any possible impact by following the piece with some facts about breastfeeding, why it's good, where to get help and also that there is an alternative - formula - for those who can't or don't want to BF. Presented in a neutral, factual tone this would have made the article much less of a problem.

Phew, that was a bit of an essay!

Back to marking exams for me!

pommedeterre · 23/06/2010 09:53

As someone who in 12 weeks has already done ebf, mixed feeding and now is just ff I think a lot of the general opinion is weirdly about the 'dangers' of formula. Bmilk has lots of advantages over formula but formula is not evil or dangerous if correctly made.
Even in the middle of baby brain/sleep deprivation can we really be considered so stupid that we need to be told formula will cause our babies to spontaneously combust in order to encourage us to bf?
I think that the writer of the article has a right to her opinion and a right to express it where she chooses. We all do as we live in a democracy. I wonder whether people that say bf is 'creepy' are incorrectly articulating a different emotion. I felt totally unable to bf in public and having always hated by big breasts since puberty felt that bf caused me to revisit some of those uncomfortable feelings.
I do feel, 12 weeks into first child, that everyone is far too interested in what I feed MY child. Why do people give two hoots??!

CakeandRoses · 23/06/2010 09:54

Ryoko - I can see why you would have felt pressure to BF if it's as prevalent in your area as you experienced.

it's odd how different areas can be and how that can influence your view of 'normal'.

I too live in a very middle class area, most of the mothers at the various baby classes were 'older' (30+) and seemed pretty intelligent - so ticked all the boxes for the typical BF, and yet, as I've said above, I was one of the very few BF after about 6 weeks.

oh and at the common MN perception that middle class = rich! IMO, class is a separate thing to money.

tiktok · 23/06/2010 09:55

Good post, Bongo Good point about accepting the consequences of what we say/write...I agree with you that the effect of this article (beyond the fact it makes the writer look deliberately sensationalist and a bit of a chump) is going to be small. Most women will not be influenced one way or the other.

But a few will. Or, more likely, it will add to the malign influences already working on these few.

I also think she is denigrating breastfeeding in general - she's assuming that bf makes her breasts dangle, not just for her but for everyone. She's assuming she can't have alcohol, not just for her, but in general. Her tone towards breastfeeding is unpleasant - in general, not just for her.

And that matters.

CakeandRoses · 23/06/2010 10:02

Now wondering if my parents fed me carnation milk . Kind of don't want to know!

I don't really understand why people in their 30s were fed it - formula's been around for much longer than 30 odd years so why would parents choose it over formula?

tiktok · 23/06/2010 10:03

pommedeterre - I promise you. Your baby will not spontaneously combust from having formula

Why do you feel you need to inject unfunny hyperbole into a post which has otherwise sensible points to make? I agree that feelings of discomfort about bf may well say more about the woman's feelings towards her body/breasts than anything specific about the act of breastfeeding.

People are interested in your baby's feeding, because they are interested in your baby, and this is one of the things a baby does - they can't ask yet how he's talking, walking, tantrumming, or coming along with his reading So they ask about feeding.

There is nothing sinister or pressurising in this, I don't think. If you are happy with how you are feeding him, there is no need to feel resentful at their interest, is there?

Donkeyswife · 23/06/2010 10:06

I think it was highly irresponsible of the magazine to run this article be it written by the editor or not. Wonder if her staff writers were too afraid to challenge her on this article and her stance on BF?

She has inadvertently undone years of goodwork by BF counsellors, maternity wards, midwives, WHO and even NICE. I think it's disgraceful that the editor of (a) Mother and Baby magazine should privately hold such negative views on BF and be ready to actually make those views extremely public by printing them. Wonder who publishes this mag and wonder what they have to say about it. Not to mention all the advertisers who pay big £ to appear in it. I for one have never bought this magazine and after reading about this debacle, most certainly never will.

tiktok · 23/06/2010 10:07

Carnation milk was (and is) cheaper than formula, Cake.

In fact, it's not so terribly different from formula. It's not a good idea to choose it instead of formula, and the warning notice on cans of evaporated milk (DO NOT FEED TO BABIES) is totally justified.

You could ask your parents why they chose Carnation - might just be because that was accepted still at the time.

allbie · 23/06/2010 10:15

Hey, she's managed to get the mag on mumsnet and all advertising is good, right? Maybe sales figures were really down and so she threw in a bit of controversy. Or maybe she just feels THE GUILT and doesn't know how to deal with it and wrote it to make herself feel better.

CakeandRoses · 23/06/2010 10:17

Ah, thanks for explaining, tiktok.

I don't know if my parents did feed me Carnation, I was just wondering after a few posters of a similar age to me said they were given it.

I knew my mother didn't BF (on GP's advice ) but I'd always assumed I had formula as I didn't know until today that carnation was seen as an 'alternative' back then.

I'll ask...

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 23/06/2010 10:18

pommedeterre the reason I give two hoots is that although I cannot deny that the early days were uncomfortable, and at times bloody painful, the longer term benefits of BF for me (as opposed to DS) were brilliant. Sometimes I feel that people make BF-ing out to be some kind of sacrifice - it isn't. Once you get into the swing of things it's far, far easier than FF. Or at least it was for me. I think women deserve to know this.

By the same token, as I mentioned earlier (under my MX5 persona!) BF/FF really isn't the be all and end all of parenting. It really is just food.

pommedeterre · 23/06/2010 10:30

Tiktok/Jenai - I was unprepared for the amount of bf 'pressure' I have felt over the last three months and how that has made me feel guilty about not doing very well at something I wanted to do. Jenai - that's great that bf was easy and not a sacrifice for you but it's not like that for everyone and tales such as yours may be setting up ridiculous expectations.

I feel angry at the 'pressure' coupled with no real support or understanding or help for people to bf. I felt that support for people with emotional issues with bf (where physically things are fine) was especially low.

I am especially angry at the midwife that dumped my daughter (first baby) onto me after cleaning her, said 'Feed her' and walked away!

I do agree that it is just food!

CakeandRoses · 23/06/2010 10:42

Jenai/MX5 - I agree that the benefits of BF for the mother and the ease of it later on aren't always made very clear.

It's brilliant being able to feed your hungry baby in seconds without any prep.

And my body went back to pre-baby dimensions in about 3 months (with no effort, diet or exercise).

Also, so much is made of the difficulty and pain of BF in the early days that it becomes expected. I'd stocked up on nipple cream (or whatever the stuff is called) and nervously waited for the bleeding nipples and terrible pain - and it never happened. The nipple cream remains unopened in the drawer.

I disagree to an extent with your statement that BF/FF is just food (and I even take issue a bit with 'just food' as imo food is a pretty important aspect of parenting anyway). The act of BF isn't solely about getting milk into your baby, it's a hugely bonding and comforting.

desanimaux · 23/06/2010 10:44

tiktok
Your capacity for patronising is quite, quite breathtaking! You have no right to call Ryoko or anyone else on this thread a liar, mistaken or say they have a victim mentality. We are posting our honest views and experiences (as was the journalist in M&B). Your attitude is exactly the sort that makes some people think 'failing' at BF is a catastrophe, leading to guilt and completely unneccesary angst at a very vulnerable time in a woman's life. Women who bang on about BF need something else to think about IMHO. As I said before, go to these 'areas of deprivation', see what needs doing and lend a bit of your precious time to help. Instead of shoving alarmist claptrap down other peoples' throats.

tiktok · 23/06/2010 10:45

pommedeterre - pressure is bad. Even encouragement is bad, if it is not backed up with practical support, good information, and understanding - just as you say. I agree there is a major gap here.

No one can make you feel guilty. Guilt comes from knowingly doing something you know is wrong and/or harmful when you have a real alternative to do something right and you reject that alternative. That hardly ever applies to infant feeding.

Why tell Jenai she is setting up ridiculous expectations? Do women who did find it easy (even after a difficult start, like Jenai) have an obligation to stay quiet? Her experience is valid, and not all that unusual. Why can't women who find bf happy and pleasurable share their stories, too?

No - breastfeeding is not just food. Nor is formula feeding. Both are far, far more than this. They are the context of the earliest relationships and interactions, and vital not just for growth but for mental and emotional development, too. Saying 'it's just food' belittles and trivialises this important period, and important experience, of a mother and baby's life.

CakeandRoses · 23/06/2010 10:45

pomme - very and at that midwife being so ruddy unhelpful. I'm not sure why midwives like that actually want to do the job. Thankfully, I had some great ones, I really wish that was everyone's experience.

tiktok · 23/06/2010 10:50

Sorry you find me patronising, desanimaux.

But please tell me when I have

i) been alarmist (by which I guess you mean creating unnecessary fear)
ii) made (made?) anyone feel not bf is a catastrophe (I don't think not bf is a catastrophe, so I am at a loss to know how I could make anyone feel that way)
iii)called Ryoko a liar - though I did say I don't believe anyone like a GP or midwife or a leaflet called formula 'evil' or her a 'freak' and she has not come back with anything persuasive about this

You don't know my life, or what I do, and whether I help in areas of deprivation or not.

I don't understand why you say it is unfair to say Ryoko has a victim mentality - certainly sounds like it to me!

CakeandRoses · 23/06/2010 10:51

desanimaux - You might not like TikTok's views or her way of expressing them but I haven't seen one comment which could accurately be described as alarmist or claptrap.

Also, afaik, tiktok does actually 'lend a lot of her precious time to help' - as a couple of posters on this very thread have said.

desanimaux · 23/06/2010 10:56

tiktok
I think you have a bully mentality.
You are alarmist because you quote spurious evidence to support BF views at the expense of all other views.
Your utterly inflexible attitude is dismissive and patronising.
If you don't believe Ryoko's GP, midwife etc siad what they said then you are implying she is either lying or a fantasist.
So tell me.....er, what DO you do (in general terms, no need to be specific) out there in the real world, with real people, with real problems?

giveittomebabylikeboomboomboom · 23/06/2010 10:58

"Well where I am they made out that formula is evil and wrong and everyone should breast feed."

I don't believe for one minute that formula was made out to be 'evil' and 'wrong' OR that everyone 'should' breastfeed. I would suggest that this is how you have chosen to interpret the words of those HP's you came into contact with in light of your subsequent experience, and in light of your personal antipathy about breastfeeding.

"the Anti-natal class was the worst as they also decided disposable nappies are evil too"

What - you mean someone mentioned the environmental impact of using disposable nappies? How very dare they!

"there was no advice at all about formula feeding it was all breast feeding advice"

Probably the teacher was thinking about how best to use the time: nobody has to give up bottle feeding because they have difficulty in doing it, whereas the majority of bf mothers will stop bf before they wanted to because of avoidable bf glitches in the early days. Makes sense really doesn't it - if your aim is to help the largest number of people to feed their baby in the manner in which they've chosen?

"and they didn't even show you how to put a nappy on a baby"

There were probably lots of things you weren't shown and I should think this was the least important.

"I see BF as a middle class thing as they can afford to spend 6 months or so sitting around at home feeding the young"

Err, so what do the babies of bottle feeders do? Feed themselves? Tsk.

99.9% of babies born since we first crawled out the swamps have been breastfed. Not having to work is the privilege of only a tiny percentage of mothers in a small number of countries. Almost all with very low breastfeeding rates strangley.

"and they can afford eco nappies".

Yes - because disposables are SO much cheaper. Not.

Gl4dys · 23/06/2010 11:00

As Ryoko is too biased to look at the Baby Milk Action information because of the name, I've added some more information:

Baby Milk Action is about protecting breastfeeding and protecting formula fed babies.

Baby Milk Action is not anti-baby milk. Their work protects all mothers and infants from irresponsible marketing.

Breastmilk substitutes are legitimate products for when a child is not breastfed and does not have access to expressed or donor breastmilk. Companies should comply with composition and labelling requirements.

Parents have a right to accurate, independent information.

Biased? I don't think so

HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst · 23/06/2010 11:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn on request of the poster.

BeerTricksPotter · 23/06/2010 11:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

tiktok · 23/06/2010 11:16

desanimaux - I am not sure if saying I have a 'bullying mentality' is the same as saying 'tiktok is a bully', but I plead 'not guilty' on both counts.

You, on the other hand, have used words to describe me and others like 'bf fascists', 'fanatics', 'propaganda lobby', 'holier than thou' and told bf supporters to 'get a life'.

I have not been insulting in this way.

I have not quoted spurious evidence, here or anywhere else. You may not like the evidence but it sure is not 'spurious'.

I am still waiting to be convinced that Ryoko's GP/midwife called formula 'evil' and her 'a freak' and until I am convinced, I wil assume she has invented this.

I keep my identity and my professional life to myself, as we all may do on this board.

tiktok · 23/06/2010 11:18

Oh, blimey - so Ryoko never even looked at BabyMilk Action's website?

I thought she meant it was biased because it only dealt with baby milk....hence my point about it not being surprising it was focused on (der....) baby milk!

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