To feel annoyed trees were cut down to print this anti-breastfeeding article

[cherrymama]

In the latest edition of Mother and Baby magazine (I bought it for the free gift) the deputy editor has an article about breastfeeding. In it she says that she "couldn't be fagged" to breastfeed and that breastfeeding her newborn using breasts that had previously been used for sex would feel "creepy". And that even the health benefits of breastfeeding "wouldn't induce her to stick her nipple in her bawling baby's mouth."

I think her attitude is horrible! I understand many people try to breastfeed and don't manage, but to say that it is creepy is another thing.

ticktockclocK - nowhere have I suggested that mothers should not be respected. I posted on this very issue - the M&B article lacks respect.

I asked politely for mumtoblair to clarify. This is not me wanting to know each and every individual situation - she described her situation and I asked for clarification on the lack of logic. mumtoblair seemed to be speaking generally. If she meant 'in my own particular circumstances, the health impact of formula/breast is less important and this makes formula feeding just as good' then she can post and tell me! It won't make formula milk 'just as good' though.

In the spirit of sharing information, I'm guessing women know the medication and drugs regime all the cows are on when they formula feed? You cannot know what was 'definitely better' in your own case - formula feeding may have been better for you, but there's no certainty about formula milk.

I take it you now realise you misread the posts on this thread, and imagined they were saying ff women are shit and that formula is poison? That these posts don't exist and you made them up made a small error in seeing them? Do tell

See I am breastfeeding on demand and would really like to formula feed but "unfortunately" for me I fear I dont have an excuse. I am talking slighly tongue in cheek and may get in to trouble on here with pro breast feeding people.

I feel that I am not a baby wearing/co sleeping natural but as breast feeding is not painful for me and is possible (I guess I am lucky) and my LO is putting weight on, I dont feel I can formula instead.

Everyone I know breast feeds so maybe its whats "normal" to you - they are not earth mothers type. I would like to be but I am too selfish Its just that breastfeeding is better my baby. Thats not meant in a smug way as I really do not enjoy it as its too frequent/too long/ too cumbersome etc. I am always feeding (only 5 weeks old) and am sick of getting my boobs out!

I wonder if YOU drink cows milk????

Formula is best for me. I don't need to explain why. If I said bf was best for me no one would ask why I am not using ff.

FFS it is an individual choice. Like real versus disposable nappies. Each side has it's reasons.

No I did not misread any posts on this thread. Just because how something is written (as an example for a different article pro-bf saying ff is poison) this is a thinly veiled statement showing what someone thinks.

I made nothing up. I find you extremely negative, judgemental, and righteous towards ff'ing mothers like myself. No wonder ff mothers have such a hard time expressing how they feel or what they think when you have a holier than thou comeback for everything.

mumtoblair does not need to defend or explain her reasons or decisions to you or anyone else. Nor do I. Are you a consultant with many, many years of medical experience??? You have no right to make any statements about my medication or my choice. There is certainty about formula milk, many, many children have been fed it. It would not have been developed or made available for consumption were it not safe and required.

The thing is I read here all the time that those who are 'pro' breastfeeding are not being offensive/hurful etc.

But then I see threads which do contain offensive observations.
I can't do a link ( sorry ) but there is a thread on AIBU at the mo which is about why do women give up breast feeding for 'crap reasons'. It is vile. The poster admits as much and later apologises.

But what's worrying is that this poster, who obviously had no idea how vile she was being, started the post as part of a pro breast feeding campiagn she is helping to run.

So, I personally, would love to see more people like thesecond getting involved in peer breastfeeding groups.

I didn't ask you to explain why you decided to ff, mumtoblaire....you'd already said why, anyway.

I just wanted to explore the logic of breastmilk being 'obviously best' while formula milk, at the same time, is 'just as good'.

Now you're saying 'formula is best for me'....I think you mean 'formula feeding is best for me'. It's not splitting hairs; it matters.

It IS splitting hairs and it is none of your business. Leave the women that ff alone as you so obviously cannot be supportive of it. Support those that want to bf.

As I said before I find this so, so sad that women and mothers cannot support each other in the ways that they should. Take a leaf out of thesecondcoming's book. She has discussed this topic with understanding and respect or both sides even whilst being totally pro-bf. This is the kind of support that mothers need and want.

ticktockclock:

• the single post saying 'formula is poison' was an ironic comment on the offensive falsity of the M&B article, not a thinly veiled version of what the poster thinks

• there were no posts saying ff mothers are shit

I have not ever in my life judged formula feeding mothers. You will look in vein for posts on mumsnet on this thread or anywhere else for judgementalism - I don't feel it, and I don't express it. I am not self-righteous either, or negative towards ff mothers. You are mistaking forthright discussion about the issues for personal comment.

I did not make any 'certainty' comments about your own situation - you were the one who did that. I raised doubts about whether formula would be 'definitely the best milk' for you, vis a vis your medication, saying that you would know if formula feeding was 'best' for you ,but you cannot be certain if formula milk was the best. I was expressing doubt not certainty.

Please read more carefully - it makes discussion so difficult when I have to keep saying 'but I did not say that!'

bloody hell i do hate how all these threads turn out!

i was lu cky enough to bfeed my first three children, two of them until they were three years old

but with no 4 it didnt work out, i was gutted and knackered and although i didnt know it at the time suffering from sevre pnd/pnp and ended up being admitted to psych unit.

now well and expecting baby no 5 and planning to bfeed BUT formula feeding has ime been so much easier than breastfeeding, i am actually worried that when i have a new baby and the demands of four older children that formula feeding will seem the easier option, if i did feed for that reason alone then i would be really annoyed with myself

the article in the magazine is offensive and tbh that and all the marketing in baby magazines is why i rarely buy them, but to think that is doesnt influence people is wrong because it does.

i agree with the comments in this thread about how you couldnt say the same thing about formula feeding, and god people just need to THINK before they speak. it is easy to offend, esp with a new mum when hormones are haywire!

oh and can i say how confusing it is having tiktok and ticktockclock on the same thread but with opposite veiws my preg brain is struggling with that!

I know this may sound stupid, but a few of you have mentioned pain - is this purely breast/nipple pain etc? I have an 18 month old DS who I fed for about 2 days. I had had an emcs which I was warned could delay milk arrival. However, after 2 days he had taken everything (MWs tried to hand express with a syringe to feed him, but I had not a drop). The final straw was when I was "halucinating" due to exhaustion and the MW took my son away as he was hungry and I had nothing to give - he was given formula.
I ask about the pain because whenever I fed I was in agony, not only due to nipple pain, but also pain in every joint and in my back. Sort of a throbbing, stabbing pain - ended up taking a dose of oral morphine (Oramorph? at least I think it was) to take the edge off. I have fibromyalgia though, so maybe that was it?
I knew all the facts about BF, wanted to do it - knew the benefits, knew it would hurt, knew I could be feeding almost constantly etc. Due to the pain all over my body and my state of mind though it wasn't for me.

It's the casual shite like happy mother, happy baby, ff is just as good never did me any harm bullshit that makes bf so difficult in this country. Women getting stared at, 'tits out' sort of horsecrap that naturally feeding a baby gets. I wouldn't stick a massive silicone teat in a dogs mouth, let alone a newborn baby. Perhaps there are instances where babies need formula and that should be accepted, but ff should be seen rarely not more commonly than BF.

This country has a poor relationship with women's breasts, every lads mag has them on but women are scowled at for using them to feed a baby.

You should have a good reason to FF, it's shouldn't be a 'natural' choice.

thesecondcoming re "i remember being in the shower,having sat and fed for ooh,an hour,literally lobbed baby at him and run up the stairs for a shower he popped her head round the curtain about 5 mins later and said in a baby voice 'mummy,i am hungry' i nearly killed him..."

I know we;re being all very serious etc now, but I laughed my arse off this. My DH did the same, the bastard. Still does, tbh.

also agree with the point that what seems all important at one stage, isn't really the big issue it appeared to be.

mumtoblaire You said: 'Everywhere is so pro-breastfeeding you are meant to feel ashamed and guilty for using formula.'

I just can't agree with this at all. Firstly, not 'everywhere' is pro-breastfeeding. There are a number of places in my hometown where I did not feel comfortable BFing because of people's reactions; people staring etc. At some of the baby groups I went to, I was the only person BFing and I felt like a fish out of water. It wasn't exactly a 'pro-breastfeeding' environment.

And no, no-one is 'meant' to feel ashamed and guilty for using formula. If individual women make FFers feel guilty, then what a shame; but they are just that: individual women. They cannot be assumed to represent all BFers or people who are pro-breastfeeding.

In a similar vein, I have, in the past, been hurt by comments from women who had C-sections: 'at least my ladybits are still intact!'. Although hurtful, I didn't assume they were the opinions of all women who have had a Caesarean. I just assumed they were the opinion of that specific woman.

Wondered if I'd see you on here, 4madboys! I nearly quoted your experience ...

MrsClaireKhaw - think about what you have said there, and realise that your views and mine will be seen as being on the same 'side' and realise that comments about dogs mouths are offensive to anyone who has used bottles....and take it back, please. It's horrible.

Your post will be quoted and linked to, every time someone wants to illustrate mad, unpleasant extreme views on infant feeding.

You might want to remove it.

"She has discussed this topic with understanding and respect or both sides even whilst being totally pro-bf."

Well actually she was quite rude and sarcastic to bfers as it happens

And whilst, as I mentioned earlier, women are mocked and humiliated in public for 'getting their tits out' to do something as disgusting as feeding their babies, I think FF has a long way to go before feeling like the victims here.

tiktok I was thinking exactly the same thing

MrsClaireKhaw I complained that the views expressed in the article about BFing were offensive ('creepy' etc) and TBH, yours are just as offensive, IMO.

Choice is good, but it is a naive to think that any choice is made in a vacuum.

Every choice I make is influenced by my upbringing and my base culture and the surrounding culture.

BF is normal to me because that is the way I was taught babies were fed, FF is normal to others for the same reason.

I will repeat, individual women shouldn't be judged/castigated for FF (and no-one on this thread has done so IMO). However, feeding a human baby milk designed for a baby cow is not the same as feeding it human milk, it can't be. The fact that sooooo many people think it is on par (and Mouth didn't even know that formula was cow's milk), shows that people's heads have been royally fucked with - we are herd animals, we follow the herd ideals, the trick for getting BF back to normality has to be on a big scale, the symbol for feeding a baby is a bottle, have a look at the Mumsnet Logo, have a look at changing room doors etc.

Isn't MrsClaireKhaw the loony troll from the facebook page incident?

Yes.

Okay, I take it back. But it was horrid to look at women on the maternity ward sticking a huge teat in a babies mouth, weird in fact.

And I know I was being quite vile and offensive, but it annoys me that the same rubbish gets trotted out about choice in this debate. It should be an either/or situation, it should be bf unless you can't. Sorry if that offends people that FF out of mother's choice and not need. But to know that Breast ios best, but foolishly thinking it's easier to FF is just bizarre.

ClaireKhaw is, I am a regular that has name changed so my namesake can't recognise me.

The real CK would probably prefer we all starve our babies, tbh.

I will name change back but I am enjoying the anonymity.

No worries thesecondcoming.

Sure, I didn't take any notice of others' feeding methods at baby groups but I did feel conspicuous, I suppose, to be the only one baring my flesh to feed! I realise that was my issue, not anyone else's, but the fact that I was the only BFer seems to be at odds with mumtoblaire's assertion that 'everywhere is pro-breastfeeding'.

Quite a few times in cafes I was asked if I needed some hot water to heat milk for my baby. That's not a particularly pro-breastfeeding environment or even an environment in which BFing is treated as the norm.