To think we should look after our own children?

[ContentedVanilla]

Why do people choose to have children if they don't want to actually do the job of looking after them? What are you getting out of it if someone else is looking after them?

If you and your partner both want a full time career then why have you chosen to have a child?

I'm not just being a bitch, I really am genuinely curious as to what people's reasons are and what makes them want children.

I read on another thread that a lady dreads the days she is not at work but at home with her child. Is it a case of not realising what it will really be like until you've done it?

VH., She asked if she was unreasonable to think that 'we' should look after our own children. For me she's not being unreasonable, for you she is. So all you need to say is that she is being unreasonable.

fairplay Vanilla

I thought that was what you meant! I feel the same

LIke you OP, I experienced neglect as a child which has shaped my views on parenthood, and like you, I find myself agreeing with Oliver James on some aspects of parenting. I didn't know he had been neglected, but it makes sense.
It does not mean parents who work or do not work are neglecting their children. It means that you can't just go about doing your own thing after you have children, without taking them into consideration. This doesn't make you a martyr, any more than a parent saying they have to work for money makes them a martyr.

I otoh have my views shaped by the fact that I can still see that my mum is not happy with the choices she made. She was a wonderful, loving mother and very efficient at looking after the home- but it's not actually very nice to know that a loved one is unsatisfied in her heart of hearts and that so much potential has gone to waste.

Yes, cory, which is why we should concentrate on re-structuring the work-place so that there is no need for someone's talents to go to waste because they spent time looking after their baby/babies.
That is a sexist/ageist workplace you are talking about and that is what we have to change.
We can't change the fact that babies need proper care.

CV, well done. It takes a lot of guts to come back and rationalise after being called a troll for a good few days!

Tis a very complicated issue, and I think Oliver James has been misunderstood. He even ran away from the Guardian this weekend.

Tis OK OJ, some of us are your friends!

I get the impression from the OP's re-evaluation that the reason she is still 'angry' with some working parents who find their DC boring/irritating is because she is strongly identifying with the DC in that scenario; and having lived through a similar situation as a child herself, she feels very sad for these DC.

Thing is though, not everyone who finds full-time parenting boring/irritating will then neglect their DC - some parents are better for having time away from their DC and the time they do spend with their DC is therefore better quality. But there are also some parents who fit into the OP's category of neglectful parents too - they just can't be equated si simplistically with working parents.

Totally agree thumbwitch.

The OP should have stuck to the agenda of parents who neglect their children, which sadly happens in some families but has nothing to do with whether both parents work.

In fact the only case of serious child neglect I've dealt with through my work as a teacher involved a family where neither parent worked!

The OP should address the personal issues here - not start attacking families with working parents. It's a shame that she chose to do this before coming back pages later.

You are right VioletHill and others, and I apologise. It's not so simple and black and white and I was lashing out.

I'll be honest I haven't read through the whole thread (I've got to do a bit of work!), but thought that I'd put down my feelings on this.

My parents both worked. I think that this was fairly rare at the time. I also went to a creche - again rare for the time. So many people who are now working do not see the long-term picture - haven't experienced it themselves and see that it's common nowadays so it must be ok. It really does have an effect on us as adults.

I'm not having a go at anyone who does work full-time, I'm just giving my perspective so that it can be taken into account when weighing everything up. By the way I do work, part-time, and that is a sacrifice that I am asking of my ds so I'm not squeeky clean in this regard.

You're certainly right in saying it's not black and white contentedvanilla, everyone's situation is unique. I think what we should all do is try to understand one another's situations and the rwasons behind what we do instead of judging each other and bolstering our own self worth by criticising the decisions others have made [preachy face emoticon].

I'm a stay at home mum. I have four young DCs (aged 6, 4, 3 and 1)and no outside help and my husband works long unpredicatable hours. Going out to work in these circumstances would obviously be extremely difficult for me - really I'm forced NOT to work out of necessity! With a lot of financial juggling we can afford to live in a nice house and go on the ocassional holiday, but it is a struggle. While it's great to spend time with my DCs and not having to constantly juggle work and home, it is quite a lonely life and sometimes very unsatisfying... I suppose I feel less of a person sometimes and like my whole life is consumed by housework and children. I also feel very looked-down upon by some women who do go out to work, but perhaps that is coming from me and not from them...I do hope to go back to work when the DCs are older but I've been away for six years now and it is a scary prospect.

Anyway, I think most of us are doing the best in our circumstances. I really think there are very few stereotypical spoiled SAHMs and very few 'high minded career women who don't care about their children' - let's all just try to understand one another and offer support not criticism!!

Here here Freddo!

I am coming in so late on this thread that everything I think has probably already been said. IMO, YABU. I want my daughters to grow up thinking that whatever their talents or interests are, they can develop them. I also want to know that if I want to request a female doctor, I can, that women's issues are taken seriously in parliament and by the media, and that there are female policewomen to deal with rape, domestic violence, and so on, and get justice for the victims of those crimes. These are just a few examples of how women being allowed entry into these jobs has made things fairer for all women. Of course I'm not suggesting for a minute that men are not capable of taking crimes against women seriously, or representing women in parliament - absolutely they are, but there have been a lot of studies into how having women there too has made a huge difference to the overall culture and its treatment of women. I believe the best and fairest world is one where women have full and equal participation in the world outside the home. And if I want that for my daughters, I want to contribute to it, too, by working myself. I absolutely respect that other women make their contribution by staying at home with their children and doing a fantastic job with them - but we are all different and that's what makes the world go round.

Not only that, but my views are shaped (as are all of ours) by my personal experiences. My mother wanted to be a SAHM but her marriage to my father was a disaster. He was aggressive bordering on violent, he cheated on her repeatedly, he left us with no food, no money and no heating so he could spend weekends in London with his friends, and he refused to allow my mother to work. She left him when my brother and I were 3 and 10 months, and she had no qualifications at all. Then she had to work in shitty low-paid jobs, study, and look after us. It was only when we were about to leave home that she finally had a career with decent hours, decent pay, a pension, proper sick pay and maternity leave, and so on. For me a career signals security, the best way of making sure my children and I have financial and emotional stability. And why, I ask, does nobody mind a mother going out doing cleaning jobs 40 hours a week, or working in the local supermarket, or even going to lunch and tennis club all the time, but they do mind her being a lawyer or whatever, and actually earning enough to support her family? I think there are huge double standards at play.

As everybody else has said, all families are different. Very few mothers are making horrible selfish decisions, and those that are are not confined to women who work. I think we should just support each other, whatever our choices are, and not judge.

a childminder I know looks after a little boy who is now 7 months.She has minded him since he was 4 weeks old for 6 days a week from 7 in the morning to 7 at night.No holidays have been taken,so when do these parents have time with their son? Each to their own and all that,but I feel that this amount of childcare is unacceptable.Also It gets on my nerves when people say that babies are boring and are not very interesting.WTF! A baby is a baby not an entertainment console.

That is a very extreme example though dexifehatz.

I have never known a childminder look after a child for 72 hours per week since the child was a month old!! If I were the childminder I wouldn't agree to do it, as that's unacceptable.

I also think the issue about babies being 'boring' is slightly misunderstood. Of course nobody has a baby expecting it to provide entertainment. I think people are just making the point that your lifestyle with an older child is often a lot more interesting than those early weeks of feeding, sleeping and changing. I found my children far more interesting company when they began to develop more individual personalities. It doesn't mean I found them boring as babies, but the eat/sleep/change nappy routine wasn't the most exciting phase TBH

I know that's an extreme example,but how many hours could be classed as extreme?

Someone has started another thread in Parenting where people have written how many hours they spend with their children if you want to get an idea of what is 'average' or whatever.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/984851-Approaching-this-subject-with-trepidation-how-much-time-do-you

I think some mums need to have that working life so as to feel complete. i am loving looking after my brood at home because i know in time i will be going back to work so im enjoying this time while it lasts. i certainly dont dread looking after my children but i do enjoy having breaks from them to recharge. perhaps this is how the working mums see their jobs just a thought

1. Because people are full of contradictions. You probably are, too.
2. Because people want everything, and it's very hard to work out where that starts getting unreasonable.
3. Because our society does have good ways of caring for children while mums are at work, and it is socially acceptable.
4. Because kids are fun at the weekends and when you're older.
5. Because - very often - it's a case of work or live on the poverty line. If you don't know why that's unattractive, you should probably give up posting until you're older.

Having said, this, I actually kind of agree with you. If we knew how to suck it up as a society (investing in children in terms of time, sacrifice and energy - instead of must-have holidays and tennis lessons), our children would probably be better off. But that's a personal, theoretical opinion and I don't think it's fair to impose it on individuals. We're mostly just doing our messy best.

OP is naive and ignorant.

And, whilst we're at it, let's keep things accurate - when people post topics like this they don't really mean parents looking after their own children. They mean mums. Why not call a spade a spade?

Much more acceptable for a women to be financially vulnerable by being 100% dependant on her partner, give up any hard worked for career opportunities, and get her life's value from raising her kids than a father doing the same, right? Because men choosing not to do that are good providers.

Oh the irony.

Jilkh - I agree absolutely with most of what you are saying, but I take issue with your point that "our society has good ways of caring for children while mums are at work". I have certainly never found this to be the case, and along with many others struggle to justify paid childcare when working. The fact that is it now the norm for children to be looked after by other people or by institutions doesn't necessarily make it socially acceptable - I know of many who would - and do - happily forego the tennis lessons and must-have skiing holidays to look after their own (and others') children.

You are bang on, IMHO, with your final point. Whilst we are quite happy to want to "feel complete" as women, we seem to have forgotten that children seem to need very little to be happy and contented - a bit of time, energy and compromise to enable a romp in the park, a game with a gang of friends, or some general mooching about is usually all that it takes, but we seem to be so caught up with the minutiae of our own lives that we have forgotten this. There is a wider debate, too, about the was in which children are regarded by society at large. We no longer see them in the streets, we no longer see gangs of them playing tag in the park. When we see them, they are under strict adult supervision and playing under rules set by adults, even in their own free time. Even after school is a no-play zone, with many children being ferried about to adult-led activities by adults stressed out from work!!

Sorry for the rant, but I believe that there is a link between the OP's point and stressed-out, unhappy children. And although this is a generalisation, in my experience children of less busy, less stressed families seem to be happier even if less well-off.

So, shouldn't we as a society make it easier for women not to work?

My parents both worked - I had a great childhood and I have a great adult relationship with both my parents.

My DH's mum never worked. He has no fond memories of her as a child and barely tolerates her now (actually, she is pretty universally despised within and outwith the family). He adored his (full time working) dad and has many happy childhood memories of them doing things together.

Staying at home doesn't make you a good parent and going out to work doesn't make you a neglectful parent.

Hear hear ithaka