to leave seven year old DD alone at home for short periods?

[firstaibu]

I've name changed for this as am fearing a flaming...

I'm not talking about leaving her for an evening or anything like that, but on several of occasions recently I've left her at home while I go to the supermarket. She didn't want to come with me, and I usually leave her sitting in the car reading when I go to the supermarket anyway. I lock the front door and she knows to ignore it if anyone knocks. She has the cordless phone and knows how to ring my mobile (she has repeatedly demonstrated this to me), and also how to ring 999. In an emergency, she could unlock the gate at the bottom of the garden to get out into the street. I phone her at least once while I'm out. She's seven and a half, and reasonably sensible; I'm confident that she just sits and reads, or plays the wii. I'm never gone more than an hour.

I know a lot of you will think I'm being very U, but is there anyone out there that does this too, or doesn't think I'm a horrendously neglectful parent?

I think its a personal choice and obviously depends on the child and the circumstances.
Also sometimes children do have to come along to things that they dont want to . All part of the learning curve? I didnt mean to be alarmist its just i have seen some awfull things and just dont think its worth the risk. Maybe sily but was the same with my now grown up ds's and they are now very independant and confident adults.

Surely part of the learning curve is learning to cope without a neurotic parent hovering over you constantly?

How come in UK it's unthinkable and neglectful to leave a child under age 12 or even 10 unaccompanied for 10 minutes (shock horror) yet in Switzerland or Germany this level of stifling molly coddling would be looked on from the opposite pov - real serious concern that kids cannot develop independently or be ok for 10 minutes alone? I caught the bus alone to primary school (in UK) alone from age 5 or 6 (about 10 miles) in the 70's. How things have changed. And as said before, my children, and all the neighbourhood kids walked to Kindergarted alone aged 5. It was strongly discouraged for parents to accompany them (though some did), but no parents accompanied the kids once they started school (aged 6 or 7), even the children who had long walks (say half an hour).

Actually this bizarre fear over letting children go has played a big part in our family choosing not to return to the UK. The freedom my children enjoy here is clearly something many British children could only dream of. Actually, no they probably wouldn't because to many it would be unimaginable and terrifying to do so much without an adult to help them with every step they take. I think it's sad tbh.

And I'm honestly not criticising any individuals on this thread. I am sure if I lived in the UK I would do exactly the same, but the culture of fear, as an outsider who experiences a very different mentality not so far away, it is quite sad to read about.

And as for MM, bloody hell, that's

My sister was horrified when I told her that dd1 got the bus at the age of 5 on her own to school.
DH used to get a train to school in rural Wales from the age of 5 or 6.

"You are being very brave as if anything happened to your LO, you would never forgive yourself.
You have to imagine everything that could go wrong. It's a billion to one chance that it will not.
But it could."
MrsCrafty I take your point, and you're right; I would never forgive myself. But if I ruled out every billion to one risk, I would never get out of bed (thus putting myself at risk of a whole host of other things ). Life is risky.

"from a CP point of view, leaving such a little child for such a long time would be a matter of concern.from a CP point of view, leaving such a little child for such a long time would be a matter of concern.".
I never think of DD as little... she is very tall, very articulate and very confident. I think that maybe skews my perception of her a bit and makes me feel that she is more mature than she actually is. She looks and sounds like a 9 year old, although she doesn't necessarily have the social skills to match, and I think I tend to treat her as such. This is a good reminder to me to remember that she is the same age as some of the girls in her class who look and sound like little delicate flowers - noone who knows my DD would ever describe her as that!

"I also think that not taking her to avoid her pestering for things is a bad idea and it would be much better just to firmly ride out the whole pestering phase as its just storing up problems not solving them. But that's a whole other debate."
MintHumbug I've been riding out the pestering phase for the last five years - it's a constant war of attrition on both sides and I don't give in to her. But as they say; 'pick your battles', and neither she nor I enjoy having her in the supermarket. It is a safe and sensible solution to me that she sits in the car reading whilst I'm in there. Leaving her at home whilst I shop is much more debatable.

"Maybe there are some truly exceptional 7 year olds out there who would logically think through the best course of action for a situation they had never been trained for (ie mummy says to phone her but the phone is now dead and water is pouring through the ceiling so what should I do next). I just don't know any 7 year olds that I would put in that situation let alone the more rare but more worrying intruder or falling down the stairs / serious accident scenarios."
I've just asked DD this (she's off school this week, and this thread has led to some very interesting 'what would you do if....' conversations ) and she said "I'd see if I could turn the tap off upstairs, then I'd see if {next door neighbour} was in". I said '"what if you couldn't turn off the tap and NDN wasn't in?" to which she said "I'd sit in the garden and read my book til you got back".

"We have a large house and a large garden - I can often spend hours in one while ds is in the other, without really knwoing what he is up to. I have to admit that I did once get caught out by not checking on him and a friend when he was 4 or 5. Went upstairs to find out that they had got the poster paints out and had used them liberally all over the rug and elsewhere in his room . I had to soak his trainers to get the pait out of the soles. "

If she has a friend round I figure that as long as I can hear distant noise, it's all fine - so I would have been caught out by that too. I could easily be in the garden/downstairs for a couple of hours without knowing what DD is doing upstairs, and vice versa. There's a tiny chance she could have fallen off her mid-sleeper and broken her neck, but that risk doesn't mean that I run upstairs and check on her every ten minutes.

"I have had interesting discussions with my dcs about this, as they spend time in two different cultures and are quite intrigued to find that what counts as irresponsible and dangerous and a matter for child protection in the UK is considered normal practice by loving parents in Sweden.
(This was one of the main reasons dd wanted us to emigrate when the offer came up last year: she wanted to have the kind of freedom her peers in Scandinavia have, and she wanted to have friends to enjoy it with.)
I cannot in honesty tell them that Swedish parents are less caring, nor that Swedish children have more accidents, nor that English homes are more dangerous than Swedish ones. The statistics prove me wrong: Swedish children do not have more accidents )(British child mortality and morbidity is higher), the homes are pretty much the same and there is very little evidence of more neglect and abuse in Sweden. So what do I say? "
Really well said cory, and I find the posts on here about cultural differences really fascinating. When I was a child I used to spend holidays at my gran's in a country village, and would spend hours wandering on my own; up the lanes, the churchyard, fields etc. I would have been 7-8years old at the time. There simply wasn't the same perception of danger. DD has holidays at my parents, who live in an isolated rural area, and she roams the fields (including a stream and pond) surrounding their house. She's within earshot (just about) and there's no traffic, but I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who would find that unacceptably risky. I love that she has the same freedoms at her DG's as I did at mine.

prettybird at you wandering under the cows!

"Well put-sums it up beautifully and will be my last word on the subject!" Piscesmoon please don't go; you've contributed brilliantly to this thread and made some really relevant points. Plus you've argued my corner more eloquently than I can!

cant believe she brought up Maddy. lets just remind ourselves of that again, a nearly 4 year old and 2 year old twins left in an unlocked apartment on the ground floor of a hotel.
kinda irrelevant to leaving a 7 year old locked in its own house with access to a phone etc.

my brother still reckons the parents did it

YABU and incredibly irresponsible.

YABU. Totally.

Last week while the kids were on half term, a fire started in our garage and smoke was coming into the house under the front door. Luckily I managed to call the fire brigade before it go too out of hand, but I absoloutely would not expect a 7 year old to deal with that kind of problem. The smoke was very bad and would have been an issue had I not managed to sort it fairly promptly and get the kids out of the house and away from both the garage and house.

My DD is almost 7 and actually wet herself with fear.

You shouldn't leave a child that young, you might think they are mature enough to handle a situation like that, but I personally think it's very unlikely that they would.

you arent being unreasonable!! it would be different if she was 4 or 5 but at seven years old they should have the intelligence and maturity to be safe! it also depends on the child, some 7 yr olds are very sensible and mature for their age!

I was left for small periods at that age and i was fine! i used to walk to school on my own.. i think its important for children to have some independence and trust.

but it really depends on the child.

I don?t know if I would dare to leave my children at age of 7, but I remember being left at home by my parents and age of 5-6 yo. It was in another country, and in these times children would get potty trained at tiny age of 1, and left by themselves for few hours at tiny age of 5-6-7. It seems very unreasonable now, but it was fine those times, and nobody got hurt or anything.

I love the Swiss casualness towards child raising, and the sense of collective responsibility that means it's perfectly alright for someone to touch your child if they fall over in the street, or to give them a ticking off if they're misbehaving.

Mind you, sometimes the casualness goes a little too far for my tastes. Swiss school hours include a 2 hour 'at home' lunch break: my kids do 8.30-12, then 2-3.30pm. That afternoon slot means that quite a few mothers with a 4 yr old at school and a 2 yr old toddler are leaving the toddler napping whilst they take the older one back.

It's a bit rock and a hard place - the little one needs the sleep, the older one's too young to go alone - but I have visions of these poor toddlers waking up whilst mum is gone (could be out for 20-30 mins) and wandering around the house crying or falling down the stairs. It's almost better leaving a 6 month baby asleep in a cot than a free-ranging 2-3 yr old who might take it in their head to 'go find mummy'...

Ledkr

"I cannot believe what i am reading here!! Can i just remind you of Madeliene McCann!! I work in child protection and can access the known paedophiles in any area "

Are you for real? What role do you have that allows you to do that and still you post alarmist nonsense as above?

It looks like ledkr is the one getting flamed (justifiably) and not the OP.

The debate on this thread has, on the whole, been very reasonable.

BTW firstaibu - the rug in ds' room never did recover from the paint attack but fortunately it was just a cheapie from Ikea (ds doesn't let us replace it though, 'cos its circle double up as "Star Trek transporter pads" ). Fortunately I discovered the boys before they trampled walked downstairs onto the cream carpet with their pain soaked shoes. Can't complain though - it was my responsbility.

On the subject of independence, ds has been allowed to go the park (and would have been allowed at 7 with a sensible friend - only we never got round to it) with a friend. He also walks to and from this friends' house - a 10 minute walk away - but always preceded with and followed by a phone call (to warn he or friend is coming/going). He has even been mugged once by 3 other boys walking between the houses - which we took up with the school as one of the boys was in the year below him. The school involved the police, as there was a suspicion that the other 2 boys (slightly older) had had knives. Never once was it suggested - by the school or the police - that we were wrong to have let ds walk on his own.

It was a horrible learning lesson - but at least ds now knows why it was good that he didn't try to fight back - and why his friend did the right thing in running to get our help. He had a few scrapes on his arm where he was pushed to the ground and was a bit shaky and teary (understandably) but is still happy to walk between the houses - although he keeps a sharp eye out for other kids and avoids any that bear any resemblance to those that attacked him.

Interestingly enough, in Sweden neighbours would be far more likely to tut about an older child who was never seen out on her own; they might even alert Social Services, as the assumption would be that the parents were denying the child a chance to a healthy and normal life and that there was probably something sinister going on.

YANBU

Didn't leave mine alone until around 9, simply because it's not culturally acceptable here in the UK. Worth remembering that in parts of the world, some 7 year olds are out earning money for the family. We treat children differently (righly) but tbh it's at the price of their independence.

I still remember being in tears watching a film of a homeless 4 year old in India (it was either Comic Relief or Children in Need) unfurling her sleeping mat and getting herslef settled down for the night. She was all on her own - even though she was "coping"

My family is all made up social workers, police, nurses etc and the general opinion is that anything under 12 is too young and SHOULD anything happen you would be prosecuted and all the things that go with that.
Shop online and get it delivered.

hmm, but a 7 yr old fending for the family, and a 4 yr old living alone on the streets is worlds away from a 7 yr old playing at home or watching tv while mum goes shopping.

It may not be culturally acceptable in the UK now, but not that long ago it was. Why give in and accept what is in effect damaging to the child (loss of independence and confidence in one's ability to cope for 10 minutes without an adult at hand)? Why should it be unacceptable? I find it hard to understand how children are so overprotected till they reach say 12, then the shit hits the fan when the kids turn teenagers and can't cope with the relatively sudden huge amount of freedom they get. (Huge generalisation & over simplification, but hope you get what I mean)

But like I said, if I lived in the UK I would almost certainly do the same partly cos I wouldn't want to risk some nutter well meaning neighbour calling SS cos I left my dc for 5 minutes, and partly cos I'm sure I myself would become more cautious and fearful being surrounded by such overcautious and fearful parents.

Isn't it interesting how we can all have (or are ourselves)family/friends who are social workers/doctors/nurses etc yet report totally different attitudes to the risk from those professionals.

Maybe it is because what we choose to "hear" is what is in tune with our beliefs.

I agree with those who live or have lived outside Britain that there is a degree of claustrophobia about living here now. And it's not that more bad things happen here than anywhere else, or than here in the past, it's fear of other parents or SS judging.

And that's wrong.

I'm lucky to live out of the way, with kindly neighbours who keep an eye out for one another. I have happily left my children for increasingly long periods of time. I hate this hysteria.

And an important note to one particular poster: the great thing that differentiates children from cars or handbags is that thing called a brain. This enables them to do things like make telephone calls or run round to a neighbour's for help.

mamjo Fri 11-Jun-10 17:52:50
My family is all made up social workers, police, nurses etc and the general opinion is that anything under 12 is too young and SHOULD anything happen you would be prosecuted and all the things that go with that"

So how do your family cope with the thought of all those 11yos travelling/walking/cycling across town to get to their secondary schools? Or are the streets safer than the living room?

I seriously cannot understand how you can feel calm doing your supermarket shop knowing your 7 year old is home alone. The thought gives me chills.There are so many what ifs. Yes, life is full of risks, but there are necessary and unnecessary ones.

I also cannot believe that other people think that this is a reasonable thing to do. It just isn't. It is irresponsible. I'm sure a part of you knows that, which is why you have posted here.

cory -So how do your family cope with the thought of all those 11yos travelling/walking/cycling across town to get to their secondary schools? Or are the streets safer than the living room?

These are necessary journeys. What the op is doing is irresponsible and unnecessary.

OP - 'I lock the front door and she knows to ignore it if anyone knocks.'

What if it's someone that doesn't knock? Someone who breaks in? Someone who has watched you leave for the supermarket, knowing you are leaving your 7 year old alone? Just cannot believe you would risk this. OK, flame me and say it's really unlikely. True - unlikely, but still possible.

And why flame ledkr -

"I cannot believe what i am reading here!! Can i just remind you of Madeliene McCann!! I work in child protection and can access the known paedophiles in any area "

It's true! Are you denying what happened to Madeleine McCann? Are you denying there are paedophiles in every village, town and city of the UK?

Sorry if anyone thought I was making a judgement, I really wasn't. Simply pointing out that unexpected things do happen and the consequences to those things maybe more complicated in the instance of leaving a child below the age of responsibility. I personally believe that the personal circumstances need to be taken into account.