to not want a male worker to take my daughter to the toilet?

[DebiDean]

Hi there,

My daughter wet herself in the nursery toilets yesterday, when I asked her about it at dinner she mentioned that it was a male worker who took her to the toilet. I spoke to a few friends about it who had different opinions about whether it was right or wrong (opinion was a 50/50 split!) and I decided that as I wasn't comfortable with the idea that I would contact the nursery and explain that I would rather a female worker take her to the toilet.

I was very clear with the nursery that I was supportive of having male role models within the nursery however I felt that to maintain my daughters dignity it would be more appropriate for a female worker to take her to the toilet.

I had a rather rude reply accusing me of being discriminative and that they would refuse to discriminate against him.

I was so shocked as I do support men working with children, but felt there should be limitations within that, or the nursery should at least consider my wishes (especially as it costs me £45 a day!!!).

Whats the opinion? Any ideas of what I could/should do?

I don't know. My dh cannot 'do his business' in front of anyone. It is purely a toileting issue, he has no hang ups of the other variety

A lot of kids do go through a stage of trying to, say, 'hold in' poo at nursery/refuse to toilet at nursery/toilet differently at nursery as they do recognise toileting outside of the home as 'different'. Add in a stranger, and yes a strange male if there are issues with that in the home (another issue), and it does become about the welfare of the child if that child is particularly sensitive.

I just think there are SO many issues that this post raises..
So to summarise from my POV:

• I feel the rallying cry of 'oooh the poor man is being discriminated against'is silly as it is highly unlikely to have any impact on him re: employability etc and therefore cannot be compared to issues related to creed/colour. It is not discrimination. He will not lose out on the basis of some minor adjustments given the particulars of the situation.

• the OP is paying £45 a day to have her wishes re: parenting respected, this is not a state setting

• I can understand why anyone with a history of abuse might be wary of a male nursery worker, and while I appreciate all the arguments to the contrary, I don't think stating this should immediately incur a rollicking flaming (e.g. being called 'warped' etc)

• I want to know why it is not considered equally 'discriminatory' to male GPs when female clients request a female chaperone, regardless of whether they are likely to be undressing in the surgery. I really, really want to know why this practice occurs commonly in NHS trusts around the country if it is so disgusting, outdated and infringing of the GP's human rights. Is it class related, do you think?

BeenBeta - I absolutely sympathise with how you feel about this. To be honest, it's not just related to the male sex though - this issue has affected all of us in society. I have often taken male children from clinic who are in groups to the toilet and I have to check there is no one in the toilet and stand at the door while this poor little 4 year old is yelling for help with their trousers/washing their hands etc.. but this is largely due to the way my workpalce words. Maybe that's why the outrage about a man not taking a child to the toilet alone sits uncomfortably with me.. I'm not sure, because this is how I work, I'm happy with any worker being alone in the toilet with a child.. I'm just not sure.

"workplace works"

Riven I can understand that because children do get embarassed as they get older but did you insist on a female carer when DD was in nursery as well?

"I'm not sure, because this is how I work, I'm happy with any worker being alone in the toilet with a child.. I'm just not sure. "

mrsbean78 - how could it possibly work in a nursery not to have workers alone with children sometimes though? There aren't enough staff members to do nappy changes/toilet supervision/nap supervision in pairs.

RE: "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp on the the grounds of race, age, or sex."

But surely that implies some loss and/or injury as if you're going to extend it to people-thinking-something-about-you-that-you-don't-like well then, we're probably all being discriminated against this very instant.

I'm not going to state, again, why I feel this is different to race but I do, strongly. I assume that others do too or else there would not be privacy/dignity laws in relation to gender and genuine occupation qualifications.

BeenBeta - I'm in Australia and it's 11.30pm. You sound like a nice fella and if you found my lost DC in a shopping centre I would be relieved and grateful. I would not assume any nastiness had occurred.

I am no man hater and I am a little that I've found myself in a frustrating argument back and forth with some who I'm sure like you are nice people and great parents.

I simply wish to express my right to prefer a female deal with my childs toileting at nursery (were it necessary). Not making any mad, unreasonable demands, just expressing a preference. Just as I prefer to see a female doctor for anything gynae related.

I think anything you do publicly is OK, ie, stopping to help a child, as other people around could witness but anything behind closed doors you can't protect yourself. (ie, if you were unfairly accused of doing something).

It's not about thinking all men are one way or another but rather having been exposed to all those horrible examples in the media of what could happen to you or yours that keeps us wary.

One or two posters said this should be about the childs needs, not the parents. Well isn't what the child needs and recieves mostly determined by the parents? Aren't we here to help that child recieve what's in it's best interests.

The children at my nursery must be particularly undignified then, but they don't seem to mind using toilets next to each other with no cubicles round them and the door open, staff supervising or changing nappies in the same room.

One of the things I teach is a course on Risk and one of the things I talk about is society and its attitude to very unlikely but extreme risks. It seems relevant here.

There is a psychological issue called the Availabilty Heuristic which basically says that risk events that can more easily brought to mind or imagined are judged far more likely to happen than those that are more difficult to imagine. I suspect the availability of 24/7 news media reporting with graphic pictures has tended heighten societal fear of all very unlikely but extreme 'dread' risks.

I think that not being able to take this particular child to the loo would not affect this particular worker's career,but if it was a regularly made request that a child should be dealt with by a woman rather than a man then that would affect the career prospects of men in childcare - no employer is going to be keen to employ someone who is not able to do all of the specified job,for whatever reason.

Jamiki,thanks for the response about the photography - I had realised that,and I am probably in a minority of one here,but my feeling is that this is another example of over regulation for no obvious gain.I would not restrict my small children from changing in a public place on the off chance some pervert might photograph them and post photos - because that would be allowing some pervert to restrict our lives and i don't think they should have that power.I would hate it if pictures of my DCs were used - but I cannot see how it would cause them any harm.(completely different of course from any actual contact)

Pogleswood - Just to reiterate - in the UK there is no law against anyone taking pictures of anyone of any age on anything in a public place.

My god Debi you are going to end up with one screwed up kid if you think dignity is not going to the toilet in front of someone else - that is learnt with age - and should not even be addressed at age 4 - it comes naturally as kids are aware of their bodies and them changing - it is wrong for you to have given your daughter any sorts of signals as to what she can do and can;t do infront of another adult at this age - it is going to the toilet FGS!

And if you are worried about abuse I can say from the kids I see at work it is their nearest and dearest who fuck them up mostly - well 98% of the time and not outside carers - you should be happy that your daughter is being cared for by both sexes it will give her a lovely view of how a loving decent man can act and be a good role model - there should be more male carers, school teachers (especially in primary and junior schools) it would make girls and boys better balanced individuals if they were not given the stupid idea that only women can do the caring and nurturing.

Well I haven't read all 20 pages but i think if the little girl herself is feeling embarrassed by receiving intimate car by a man, then the OP should have made that clear to the nursery and they should comply with that.

Sorry,coalition - I do realise that,I did read the previous posts! My post stuck together my feelings on restrictions in private locations and the self censorship of either being reluctant to be thought to be photographing someone else's child even accidently,or the whole not changing little kids in public thing,but I realise I didn't say any of that clearly...
Also realise this is not terribly relevant to the thread...

Haven't read the whole of this rather nasty thread, but can no one remember what it's like being 4 I can, I was really shy, particularly of men (no deep phsycological reason, I just new less of them) and I would not have liked to go to the loo with (or even talk to) a man I didn't know.

So OP YANBU

knew

I have just asked my dd1 why when I took her to the gp's when she was 3 years old - why did she not want to take her top up to show the gp the rash.

So she is now nearly 18 and apparently the reason she didn't want the gp to look at her tummy was cos he was a boy and boys at nursery are peskie and annoying so she didn't want a boy looking at her tummy.

So I just state - but the gp wasn't a boy - he was a man a fully grown man the same age as granddad.

The answer - but he was representing a boy to me and them boys at nursery are annoying so I thought the pg was annoying and peskie aswell.

So dd aged 3 wasn't being sexist not wanting a boy to look at her tummy it was just the fact she thought boys were annoying

So i can't really see that you can stop little boys being annoying - can you

My BIL is a wonderful father and Uncle, but my dd is more wary of him than other female relatives. It's just the way it is.

How does any spouse protect their dcs against their spouse? dunno.

I guess with respect to my paranoia or safeguarding if my dcs were going to cross a road I would choose a quiet one.

Havent read all the posts (far too many).
There is a male working in my DCs nursery and I think he is fantastic as do my DCs me and dh have problems with him changing nappies or taking DCs to toilet. In fact he even babysits for us and in last month when we had a funeral to go to in scotland he very kindly took DCs back to our house after nursery and had them overnight and all day sat. He gave them a bath put them to bed and even took them into our swimming pool on the sat. I do not feel at all uncomfortable with this. He worked hard for his qualifications and is infact one of the most qualified staff members there he also does as many of the courses that come up to do with childcare. he is very enthusiastic about his job and TBH as a male i think he has to be as sadly there are people out there who think that male chilcare workers are 'out to get' our DCs as they cant possibly be in it for the pure joy of simply enjoying helping and ecouraging DCs to grow, learn and have fun with out having an alterior motive!!
I think it is great to have a male role model in nurserys.
I know that all parents in my DCs nursery feel the same as me and it is clear that he is very popular amoung the DCs as when he walks into the room after a weeks holiday the kids go crazy sguealing yay yay look guys 'jo blogs' is back and imediatly he is surounded by a dozen DCs all wanting to be 'helicopters'.

That should be no problems there on line 2!!

So to sum up: 99% of people think YABU.

Big hugs all round including Debi and move on to anther thread?

Do 4 1/2 yr olds really need help going to the toilet? Beyond being escorted so they don't run off round the building?

UTGSN, of course.

I can see that a 4 year old girl could well be shy about a strange bloke taking her to the lav.

Riven's DD is different because unlike a NT child of the same age (is that the right terminology?) she could not:
*run away
*fight back
*say 'no'
*scream (maybe she could but I doubt a passer-by would take any notice - apologies if that's me jumping to conclusions)
*tell someone what happened

I've got three kids, the eldest of whom is 14 and none of them ever had a male nursery worker. When I read the OP my instinctive reaction was 'Yes, I'd feel uncomfortable about a male worker taking my DD to the toilet' but this thread has blown my unformulated prejudice out of the water because, of course, it never occurred to me to mind my sons being changed by women. Sorry the OP got such a bashing but it was a good topic to raise for discussion.