to not want a male worker to take my daughter to the toilet?

[DebiDean]

Hi there,

My daughter wet herself in the nursery toilets yesterday, when I asked her about it at dinner she mentioned that it was a male worker who took her to the toilet. I spoke to a few friends about it who had different opinions about whether it was right or wrong (opinion was a 50/50 split!) and I decided that as I wasn't comfortable with the idea that I would contact the nursery and explain that I would rather a female worker take her to the toilet.

I was very clear with the nursery that I was supportive of having male role models within the nursery however I felt that to maintain my daughters dignity it would be more appropriate for a female worker to take her to the toilet.

I had a rather rude reply accusing me of being discriminative and that they would refuse to discriminate against him.

I was so shocked as I do support men working with children, but felt there should be limitations within that, or the nursery should at least consider my wishes (especially as it costs me £45 a day!!!).

Whats the opinion? Any ideas of what I could/should do?

yep.
I think the white van thing is actually true

As as all the maths pedants out there are telling you, these conclusions simply cannot be drawn.

First you need to know what the statistic chances are of a male in a nursery setting abusing children; that is, you need to relate the figures of actual males in nursery settings abusing to the proportion of male nursery workers compared to female nursery workers.

Most of the male-abuser statistics are of brothers, stepbrothers and (to a somewhat lesser extent) stepfathers and fathers: they can not be used to extrapolate about a totally different category of men in a totally different situation. I was a little surprised to see that brothers and stepbrothers head the league: presumably, a lot of those are teenagers still living at home, so would be less likely to get a job at a nursery.

Retracts white van statement

NidaJ Wed 26-May-10 14:08:07
"I actually think its not that unreasonable to not want a male staff to take your DD to the toilet. It doesnt automatically mean you are accusing him to bea paedophile or anything. it's just a feeling some mom's might get.

of course females do things as well, but i think if as a mom your not comfortable then feel free to air your opinion and not feel pressurized that YABU"

There are actually still women in this country who think that being touched by black hands makes you dirty. I am sure this makes them uncomfortable. So it would be quite ok for a mum who felt that way to ask that her dd should not be touched by any black nursery workers?

Pigletmania - apologies if you feel I was being nasty. Not my intention.

Just trying to defend my right to try to protect my child.

Jamiki,no one questions the right to protect your child but you cannot bring yor child up in an atmosphere of fear, distrust and paranoia based on your prejudices....it cannot be healthy for them. We naturally risk assess as parents but only within reason.....to keepthem from harm totally, maybe we should keep them in a bubble for the first 18 years.

The 15:1 sum wasn't mine.

digging up dirt on someone is just not on. surprised more people don't do it to me. i've got loads of stuff that people could throw in my face, i'm sure.

So how does not wanting a strange male toileting my child equate to me bringing the child up in an atmosphere of fear, distrust, and paranoia.

Oh, it's a wind up,

gee, you got me good girls, ha ha.

Goodnight.

"this is the reason we dont have many men working with children"

I actually think it's more to do with the piss poor pay and minimal opportunities for career progression.

Someone please tell me how a man not taking a small child to a toilet is discriminatory in the sense it will negatively impact upon his career?

Is it discriminatory to male HCPs and male doctors that women can request a chaperone to be present? How come male doctors are still happy to see women? Would anyone say that this measure is driving men away in their thousands from the (highly paid) medical professions?

Discrimination implies that someone is missing out on something - in this case the 'right' to take a small child to the toilet. As this is such an important thing to do.

I think all the abuse etc stuff is irrelevant. A consumer has a particular issue within a service context and her view deserves to be respected in so far as it does not impinge upon said male nursery workers career prospects with reference to pay or progression.

If you read the thread Jamiki, you may understand what has been said to date....there are plenty of views expressed as to why it is unreasonable

so mrsbean, would you think it perfectly ok if a consumer requested that her child should not be touched by the black nursery worker? the nursery should respect that?

let it go scurry. she can not see it. thinks we are joking and it is a wind up. never been more serious, me.

Nor me....oh well.

When I worked in a ps about 2 years ago one asian family asked that I be their child's keyworker and not another staff. This staff perceived this as racist as she was asian? . Anyway they did not get their wish and eventually withdrew their child. No one asked what their reasons were so I am still in the dark.

I've been through that cory. This is different to racism.. privacy and dignity with respect to toileting is recognised in law. In the particular case outlined, the little girl was uncomfortable weeing in front of a man eg it was impinging on her privacy/dignity.

If someone asked for a chaperone for a black/Asian/non-Jewish/white supremacist nursery worker they would be rightly denied because there is no grounds for doing that.

No one has engaged with the fact that a female client of a male GP can have a chaperone present (whether or not she is likely to be clothed) without everyone going mental and shouting 'you are warped and sick and infringing his human rights!'. No one has given me any reason to believe that complying with this parent's request is going to cause undue harm or loss to the male nursery worker. If anything, you should be arguing it would be discriminatory for the female workers to have to take this child to the toilet.

I work in a very popular nursery - if a parent requested that their child wasn't cared for by a male member of staff (or a lesbian or black member of staff) I expect they'd be invited to find another nursery that could better meet their needs. There are plenty of children on the waiting list who are happy to take their place - why should the nursery pander to such attitudes?

Our male staff members have exactly the same contact with the children as anyone else - nappy changes, toilets, even being alone with children in the cot room. It would be ridiculous to try to juggle certain children only being cared for by certain staff.

FranSanDisco - I actually have seen this happen in my trust. I know of two cases where Asian colleagues were asked to get a second opinion on their diagnosis from a white colleague by a British Asian family/same community who assume she doesn't have the qualifications .

I just feel uncomfortable with the question of dignity being raised in such a young child mrsbean. Who has taught her that it is undignified for a man to see her private parts? Usually, this is something that comes much later, as girls mature. If a child of nursery age reacts this way, then I think I would worry about what she has been taught.

To sum up:

the question of dignity can only arise in the context of the child's own reaction- the mother's experiences should have nothing to do with this

she is very young to associate feelings of dignity with the sex of carers: this is not something most 3-4yos do naturally

if it is a question of dignity, then risks and statistics should not be discussed in this context

if risks are raised, then we are perfectly justified in discussing how great those risks actually are

I had dignity, then I went through child birth

cory - I've just come back to say 'Yes'.

agree with cory. why would a child, the age of OP's, feel that it was not dignified to have anyone, anyone, either man or woman, help them go to the toilet.
nursery workers are caring and would try and make it as intrusive as possible, presumably.
it is questionable, that Op worried about her dignity. why would the child feel undignified.

i still feel that no one has provided any reasobale grounds for this request. none. what-so-ever.
i justy don't get it. and the more people insist its o.k. the more i don't think it is balanced.

Jamiki - I happen to notice you were saying goodnight around 3.00 pm UK so am guessing you are in SE Asia and there may be cultural reasons why you feel the way you do. Apologies if that is or is not the case.

Nevertheless, I wonder how you would react if your child was lost in a shopping centre and I stopped to comfort and help your child and then you came round the corner frantic with worry to find me with your child?

It is your possible reaction that worries me given your attitude. It is the reason why I would never stop to comfort and help a child even though as a parent it is the most natural thing in the world for me to want to do.

I hope you can see my dilemma.