to let my 16 month old wander round a quiet tea room...

[GumtreeGirl]

...rather than keep him in his pushchair or high chair when he's bored and fidgety?

Scenario today: a quiet NT tea room with a couple of friends with toddlers the same age. We'd sat round with snacks/ teas for 15 minutes or so, then DS having hoovered up all the snacks I'd brought started getting fidgety and asked (gestured - he's not talking yet) to get down.

The tea room was quiet - there were two other groups in there, one couple and another family group. DS wandered about, had an explore, didn't disturb anyone else either physically or noisily, then came back and started playing next to me with the toys that were supplied there. I kept an eye on him the whole time, and if he'd started disturbing anyone or making a noise I would have brought him back to our table.

One of my friends then let her son down, and he also wanted to explore but she then made a huge deal about not letting him - "I don't like him running around - he can run around at home, but not somewhere like here". My other friend then said "But he gets fed up in his pushchair, right?", to which the answer was "Yes, but tough, he has to learn he can't just wander around".

So I was left feeling v. uncomfortable and implicitly criticised for being a Bad Feckless Mother.

Personally, I (obviously!)feel that it's OK for a small toddler to wander around, supervised, if he's not disturbing anyone, and that at 16 months, 30 minutes of enforced sitting still is an eternity. I certainly would aim to start teaching him when he's a little older that he can't just get down and race around, particularly if others are disturbed, but right now his comprehension isn't there, and sitting still would mean he'd complain, noisily, which would be more disruptive to everyone else.

So, am I a Bad Feckless Mother, or OK to let him do this, for now? And what age did you start instilling the 'Sit nicely at the table' rule?

I hate having to speak to other peoples toddlers when I'm trying to have a quiet cuppa I've done my penance when mine were small. Interesting point about cafes with toye etc being seen as toddler wandering areas - my friend runs a cafe and puts toys in a corner specifically to STOP kids wandering around!

I cant stand parents who sit on their ass while their PFB goes round tables 'entertaining' and 'charming' the other diners. People might actually be going out to get away from their own kids you know!

I always speak to them, but then you wonder if you are doing the right thing. Is it a good idea to let a toddler wander off and speak to perfect strangers?

I don't think you are BU. It all sounds harmless, he wasn't disturbing anyone so what's the problem? He's 16 months FGS, a baby, of course he doesn't want to sit still for long.

What I really don't get about this sort of thing is that some parents seem so inflexible. Yes of course, most of us want our children to learn good manners, stay at the table etc but sometimes you have to have a bit of leeway. If you generally expect good manners and instil them, you're not going to go back a hundred steps by being a bit flexible. And you know what, I believe MOST adults have general good manners however they are brought up. I think sometimes we all get our knickers in a twist over the most trivial things.

Is it just me that doesn't have a 'policy' on this?

Personally I take each situation as it comes and deal with it as I see appropriate. If you want to sit down and have a cup of tea and a natter, I can see nothing wrong with letting your toddler have a wander round and explore for a short time. Toddlers just aren't interested in sitting still for long and I think we do expect them to be mini adults when it suits us of course.

I cannot help but sympathise about the perceived criticism. It is very hard to distinguish between bitching and honest opinions sometimes and think the best thing you can do as a mum is develop a thick skin and just do things as you see fit (much easier said than done of course!)

YANBU I let DD wander a little bit at that age, or would hold her hand and wander around with her and rather than decide 'today's the day it stops' gradually she sat nicely for longer periods of time. She now sits and 'reads' her book, while I read the paper, and sits nicely in restaurants - she's just older and isn't at the exploring age anymore.

Some people prefer them not to which is their choice. I think most mothers know their children and if DD was the type to run wild and knock tables and crawl under chairs I wouldn't have allowed it.

I agree with GoodasGold, I'd much prefer to have a little chat with a toddler than hear them being told off for next to nothing.

Blimey I haven't read all the posts but I would have lost mine explore as long as he wasn't disturbing anyone. It's a cafe not the Vatican.

It's difficult isn't it? I had to spend about a whole minute glowering at a mum who was walking round a restaurant with her, admittedly very cute, little daughter - before she got the message. She was allowing the child to wander up to people at tables, and then gazing down dotingly waiting for them to respond. You know what? When I'm in the middle of an intense conversation with a friend about something upsetting, I don't want cute toddlers paraded past my table. So, her daughter wasn't unsupervised, but I still didn't want her wandering around then stopping and staring at me when I was eating.
I know, I'm a GOW,

Ds4 got scalded a month ago in our own home. His whole face and part of his scalp were blistered. This was from a cup of tea which had been sitting on a worktop for a few minutes. Luckily none of the burns were deep but it has taken a long time for him to look normal again.

I wouldn't have let them wander round a cafe before, tbh but I would be even more careful now.

I'm with you fluffy - I absolutely loath little persons wandering up to me in a restaurant - like a whining puppy!

It's rare enough that I get out to have a coffee or a meal in a rest / cafe.. the last thing I want is some little child wandering around. I find the parents who let their little darlings do this are incredibly selfish - and rather too "it takes a village to raise a child" (i.e. lazy buggers) and steeped in the irresponsible attitude of I couldn't be bothered looking after my little one when I enjoy my own coffee, so keep an eye on her will "you all" while she wanders in your orbit, for my liking.

So, I'll come off the fence and say: it's a pet hate of mine, and I never go to a restaurant again with a pal who lets their own child wander - it causes confusion for my own DC.

Like many others, I worked as a waitress and am very aware of the risks in a busy restaurant. I can't relax and let a scalding happen before my eyes. I just shudder when I see a child wandering around.

If your child is fidgity - go to the playground with him/her and have a take away coffee, and leave the cafes to those of us who have earned our pips in the playground!!

Hope your DS is OK Chippy. Poor little fella.

Wow, I'm astonished by the general tenor of the comments here. All these people getting so angry that small children may interact with them or even just look at them! I find this really sad, tbh. People who complain about having to interact with kids when they're out keep saying that the child should stay at home. Frankly, I think if you are so averse to having contact with kids (or other random human beings that you don't know), perhaps you should stay at home.

I will never forget the kindness of Cypriot strangers when we were there on holiday with our then 14m DS. We sat in a restaurant for a meal at 8pm, and a parade of other patrons practically squabbled with each other about who got first rights to play with him, while we enjoyed some true time off. Everyone from grannies to a couple of teens on a date took him for a bit! And while he was a cute baby, he wasn't so dramatically cute. It's just the way they were.

Sneer all you like about "it takes a village". If that's what a village is like -- being nice to each other and being kind to babies, I'll take the village every time.

That's why I like CenterParcs and Carluccios -- people are nice to kids.

PS: I'd love to see some robust evidence from a peer-reviewed journal demonstrating a meaningful increase in toddler harm in Med countries vs the UK due to wandering in restaurants! I think confirmation bias is the most likely explanation of any apparent observations of this sort. Of course, restaurants can be dangerous, but this does seem to be reaching a bit...

Sorry I disagree that anyone should feel obliged to interact with a strange child when they are trying to enjoy a meal with their own family/friends.

I think it's reasonable not to want to do so. People go to restaurants to enjoy a meal not to babysit.

I'd say hello to a child and give it a smile but that's as much as I care to do.

And who said that children should stay at home?

Oh fgs!
You want to see 'some robust evidence from a peered-reviewed journal' and
Yes, i'm going to search the internet to find statistics for you

Or you could use your brain and work out what happens when you have a tiny toddler running in a room and a busy waiter balancing hot drinks. Or you could believe us when 3 of us posters have worked in restaurants and cafes.
None of us said children shouldn't go to these places. Most of us said that it is not a good idea to run around on their own.

'I will never forget the kindness of Cypriot strangers when we were there on holiday with our then 14m DS. We sat in a restaurant for a meal at 8pm, and a parade of other patrons practically squabbled with each other about who got first rights to play with him, while we enjoyed some true time off. Everyone from grannies to a couple of teens on a date took him for a bit! And while he was a cute baby, he wasn't so dramatically cute. It's just the way they were.

I think that you have to recognise that it is a different culture, the parents of the DCs respond differently. I think there would be general horror if I was having coffee with my teenage DSs and we picked the toddler up to play with him!!! I wouldn't dare do it! The parents are really saying 'put up with my cute toddler, he is sweet and should toddle around-you can smile but don't dare pick him up!' You can't have it both ways!
If you know that your DC won't like sitting still, make sure that you have something to amuse him, play with him and don't ignore and cut the time down to the absolute minimum.

'you can't have it both ways'
Excactly piscesmoon. I like the 'pick and mix' in this sort of threads. If the child's OWN grandma dares to pick the child up with no permission mum will go mental. Then when we talk about serious safety issues we go nostalgic about our summer hols and the lovely granny there. As if here everybody is a monster.

Slhilly I think you need to think about choice. Your Cypriot strangers wanted to play with your DS, they made that clear and so fine. What I'm saying is that parents shouldn't assume that others are happy to take part in their "village". People are entitled to eat a meal or have a coffee break in peace. They should be able to have a private conversation at their table without having a toddler, with or without attached mother, hovering round them. In the situation I mentioned above, my friend and I were trying to discuss a difficult situation she was in with her husband. We'd gone to a nice bistro place where the tables weren't too close together, paid a fair amount of money for our lunch, and were there to eat and have a heart to heart - not keep an eye on someone else's child.
I can't see anyone saying children should stay at home, or being angry.

It gets me cross too. We get whole threads where MIL isn't allowed to pick up my baby without permission, 'dirty' strangers are not to stroke a baby and DCs are to stay glued to mum in case 'they are taken'.
Then we get how wonderful it is in Mediterranean countries that people like children, forgetting that they pick them up, stroke them, talk to them etc!
I wouldn't dare pick up the wandering toddler, even if I was a lady on my own with my CRB certificate pinned to my coat!
The message is look, admire (even if misbehaving) but don't interact and don't touch! Can you imagine the fuss if I handed the toddler a chocolate biscuit!!!
It is all on the mother's terms.

You should offer them baklava then, no choc bisc Less sugar. No!

You know Mediterranean/European culture isn't automatically superior to British culture. They are different but both have pros and cons that level them out.

Everyone is always saying In Greece or In Sweden (insert appropriate country) on here.

I wouldn't let dd wander around in a cafe, no. But I wouldn't frown at someone else doing it, especially if they were being unobtrusive like the OPs. Personally I couldn't relax if it were my DD as I would be too worried about her getting in other people's way.

The doctor's surgery is an interesting example though - I do let her wander around there as they have a toy corner, and you can't really distract with food like you can in a cafe, and can end up there for a long time (like when I turned up an hour early for the appointment and they didn't bother to tell me when I booked in ).
She's quite shy though so I don't have to worry about her bugging other people - if they looked at her she's likely to come running back to me - it's quite handy
If there was someone coughing and spluttering I might be a bit more uptight and try and keep her pinned to me though, but it would not be a popular move.

Fluffyone: choice cuts both ways; that was my point. The problem is that some people want to relax while out with their kids and let them do what they want to do; others want to have time free of kids, so two choices are in tension with each other. tbh, as others have said, a lot depends on context. Some places have a more adult "feel" to them than others. I tend to go with the kids to places where I think they will be welcome to be themselves. This is not automatically the same thing as going to less posh places -- Le Manoir Aux Quat'Saisons is incredibly welcoming and relaxed about these things. They gave us a table that was fairly secluded from the other diners, they coo over the kids, they were fine with us having toys out to keep the kids distracted and pretty much in place, etc etc.

Morloth: I don't automatically assume Med culture is superior: I spelled out the reasons why I thought it was. That was the precise opposite of making some kind of automatic assumption. You may disagree with my reasons, but you can't say I just asserted. There is a reason why people point to other cultures -- they help us see the range of behaviours out there in the wide world. Sometimes we'll prefer the behaviours from another country, and sometimes people will say so here. That all seems like a reasonable thing to do.

I think doctors surgery is different PrivetDancer. Unfortunately cafes have hot drinks and food which makes it dangerous for toddlers.

I agree with everything piscesmoon said , MN in particular makes me very scared for the current generation of children.

Incidently, my mum said when she was first introduced into the cypriot culture (my dad is cypriot), the thing she noticed was how wonderful the men in particular were with little children.