to think it's not helpful when people are overly negative about FF?

[lunartictoc]

Hi
Have been reading boards for a while under a different name, but wanted to post slightly contentious issue under new name.
AIBU to think that when discussing the merits of BF V FF, it is really unhelpful when some BF advocates try to strengthen their case with really negative comments/facts/ideas about FF? ie discussing how F-fed children are more prone to illness (including serious, like cancer) that it can lead to health problems for mothers, that it can cause obesity etc? I absolutely catergorically cannot BF my DS as much as I would have loved to - it is medically impossible. So I did a bit of research on FF, and many search engine results point here to MN. It scared me half to death reading what some posters have said about FF - I have no option, and without FF my son would have no milk at all! Some statistics (and indeed vitriol from the more judgemental posters) have just made me feel so upset and that I am being a bad mother, and damaging my DS in some way. I understand that pro-BF parents are keen to educate, and I understand that many F-feeders do so due to lack of support/education etc, but I think that there are many better ways to get across this message. Perhaps I am being over-sensitive, but some comments have really upset me! AIBU?

I think the trouble with your analogy Prof, is that if I let my dds watch too much tv, it is just that, I might beat myself up a bit about it, but well la-di-da. But if I try and fail to b'feed my baby, it is a far more emotional (and often painful!) journey.

Also you talk about the influence on IQ of f'feeding/b'feeding and Tv watching as part of your analogy, but the negative health implications of f'feeding are often concerning such things as "bottle feeders suffer more breast and ovarian cancers, and their babies suffer more childhood cancers (like leukimia) and bowel cancers later in life.." I think it is this sort of thing that really upsets people, rather than worrying about a few points on IQ.

BTW,I don't think people should stop talking about the negatives of formula, and huge positives of b'feeding, I just think it is important that it is a discussion that everyone should be able to get involved in. I have tried and failed to b'feed 2 babies, I would love to succeed in b'feeding dc3. I would also love to learn as much about b'feeding in the hope of helping support my daughters if they ever have children.

i feel that until we are able to accept and acknowledge the downsides of ff, those of us who might have been able to bf but couldn't in the end because of shitey support, might get better help from the off. it's something like 90 per cent of us who start bfing.

is your name a pisstake, lunartictoc?

I wondered if the OP was the real tt posting a reverse AIBU at first, Aitch. With a completely different style of course.

To those who are saying that they don't want to hear it, do you know all about it? Are you saying you don't want to know about the benefits? Or are you saying you don't mind hearing good things but you don't want to hear bad things? I am a bit as to which it is.

And like Hazeyjane says, don't you want to find out as much as possible about it - some of the information posted by the 'pro-bf' - its like its pro gun crime or something - so that you can support your children, and grandchildren?

Ruby
I don't want to hear it because there's fuck all I could have done about it and it makes me feel a bit shitty to think that DS is at higher risk of getting cancer/diabetes/leukemia because I couldn't breastfeed him.

so you and the OP are saying that no-one on the internet can say negative things (facts) about ff in case you go searching for info and stumble upon it? you don't think that's a bit self-absorbed?

YANBU

I think disemination of accurate and medically supported facts about ff/bfing is essential. However this is not the same as cutting and pasting the results of a quick google or representing your own belief as medical fact.

unfortunately some zealots have no sensitivity or tact in how the discuss bf.often resorting to hectoring and spurious alarmist claims.shame their commitment and passion cannot be channelled more appropriately

Hey hey hey! No, I'm just agreeing with the OP that I don't like to read it. I stated earlier that I get by this by avoiding reading it...not that I expect everybody to STFU in case I get upset!

There is, however, a big question mark over how much BF/FF affects future health of children. Since there are many many factors that contribute it's impossible to pinpoint what rise in illnesses is attributable directly to not BF and yet statistics are bandied about as if they are fact, when they are not.

I accept that BF is better and that FF has health risks. However i'm well enough past it to be grateful for the health benefits of FM, ie that DS isn't dead because of it. When I was deep in the hormones/guilt/new mother phase I was not so sanguine and it wasn't helpful to me to be told that the way I fed DS was likely to raise his risk of future cancers/diseases. It didn't make me any more able to BF and it made me feel like shit. But then most new mothers can find something to feel shit about - that's nobody's responsibility but mine.

I spend a lot of time- in my usual persona - on the bfing forum, trying to support and inform. I very rarely ever see these 'zealots' or 'nazis' that are referred to. I hear them spoken about but rarely witness them in action. What I do see is a handful of dedicated posters tirelessly giving their own time and energies to try and support, encourage and inform. And in a country where the majority try to bfeed and minority succeed, good and accurate facts are necessary.

It is very hard not to see things as personal comments when it's something that feels so raw and painful to you. I ache inside to hear facts about how a natural birth is better. I know I couldn't have a natural birth, that the way my child entered this world is proven to be the inferior route with associated issues and my reaction to it is visceral. But that is my reaction and my problem. I would still support every woman to have the birth I could not and accept the sadness as the hand dealt to me by fate.

And there are reasons why we discuss the negatives of ffing as opposed to the benefits of bfing. Bfing is the norm. FF is an inferior substitute. The words are evocative, but they are not used as weapons to wound the woman who could not bfeed but facts to inform a woman who is undecided or a hcp who joined a profession where the optimum healthcare and choices should be foremost in his/her mind.

I think you have a good point Eric.

We need to normalise BF in society as at the moment the rates are so low it is a self selecting group of people who do bf beyond the first few weeks, any statistics will show the average bfeeder - how do we know what the benefits of bf/risks of ff are when there are so many other factors (e.g. diet, general view on exercise and health etc) that could generally apply to people that choose to bf?

I say this as someone who REALLY struggled with bf, DD didn't latch on until 4 weeks old (despite being seen by every professional under the sun) and so was mixed fed until then, eventually got her on the boob and then had to relactate until by 6 weeks she was exclusively bf. The first few months were a truly horrendous time and my mental health definitely suffered as I was obsessed. I read everything I could on bf and I think part of the reason I felt I had to succeed was due to all the negativity surrounding ff.

I must say, although I will def bf next time and wholeheartedly think that it needs to be seen more and viewed as the normal way to feed babies, I am now more sceptical over the risks of ff. Instead of scaremongering (which in the first 4 weeks of struggling that is exactly what it did to me, scared me, and that is not great when you have a newborn!) lets create a culture of support.

This doesn't have to be done by proving how bad ff is, but by focussing on the fact that bf should be the way we feed unless there are good reasons not to. I know this is hard with the dire support out there, but I truly believe the aggression that is sometimes present in these kinds of discussion only serves to further alienate anyone for whom bf doesn't come easily (or those that for whatever social reasons don't even consider it)

While I agree that Breast feeding needs to be normalised I had my dd in another European country where Mum and baby have 4/5 days in hosp and 24 hr a day support to support breast feeding and give Mum confidence that while it is tough it is possible and if not which was my case then FF is best they discussed the pro's and con's of both which I feel is not done in the UK and while pregnant I never heard Breast is best, it was breast is better. I have had a report for my nutritional course handed back to me and told to change Breast is better to breast is best I have refused on the grounds that no from personal experience it is not. TBH I am grateful that I had my dd abroad and the healthcare staff could discuss feeding options without it being state policy because it is normal to feed your child and how you do it is your business once you have all relevant info and your dc thrives

Lunartictoc you need to remember the things you are worried about are very rare thankfully.

BF may protect against some of them but genes and your child's lifestyle will play a far,far bigger role in his future health.

Yes breast feeding is best but so are many other parenting choices. Just make sure you promote a healthy lifestlyle ie provide healthy food and exercise and don't smoke.

Extreme bfs do like to congregate on MN (I guess they've got a captive audience).They like to scare ff mothers for many reasons,don't fall into the trap and keep it all in perspective. I'm presuming your ds isn't eating a 100% organic diet fit to bursting with 150 essential vitamins and minerals daily(if he is all power to you but the vast majority of very healthy ff and bf children aren't),if so I bet you're not beating yourself up about it. Extreme bf like people such as yourself to get upset about this issue so they can then come on to quote and link ad nauseam. Don't rise to it.Just repeat to yourself breast may be best but it wasn't for me and it's just one of many other parenting choices.

Your child isn't doomed just because he had formula in the same way bf babies aren't super babies just because they had breast milk.If they grow up eating a fat filled,chemical filled diet,do little exercise and smoke they'll be trotting off to an early grave as quickly as the next person in fact faster than most ff babies who carry out a healthy lifestyle.

It would of been great to have bf your son but so what there are many,many other things you can do to compensate for it.

Don't avoid MN but see these posters for what they are-scaremongers who want others to feel crap because this is a parenting area they feel they excel in,often they have areas they feel bad about like all of us but focusing on bf as the be all and end all of a child's health makes them feel better as they have been successful in this particular area.

Most normal pro bf (you the type you come across in RL) don't hang out here linking to excess, they're out having a life or enjoying many of the other topics on Mumsnet. Most normal pro bf know breast is best and know every single mother in the land knows this. Most normal pro bf also know mothers need more support not scaremongering and if a baby isn't bf it really isn't the end of the world.Try and remember that when you're wading through the link mountain

'have' not 'of'

It really annoys me, when the breast is best brigade, think they have the right to approach you and force their opinions on you when you dont want it.
Fair enough on here and other forums, where everyone is entitled to their say. However it really annoys me in RL, when people think they have the right to approach you and have a go!
When i had ds 10y ago, i didnt want to breast feed. End of, MY choice. But it really pissed me off when the other mothers on the ward thought they had the right to question my reasons for doing so, and then proceed to bitch about me, when i told them to mind their own!
Another woman on the ward, had tried bf, but was having lots of problems, so ended up ff. Anyway, the 'ringleader' of the bf mums, marched up to her bed and thought she had the right to have a go at her for not trying hard enough, and also had a go at her for not standing up to the midwife, who had suggested ff to her.
This kind of busy bodyness is what annoys me about some (not all!) bf's.
At the end of the day, although bm is probebly better than fm, every woman has the right to feed her baby however way she wants too! As long as baby is getting fed and is healthy, thats all that matters.

some threads on mn (feeding/working mums) are always a debacle. but dont let words on a screen permeate to real life

well no, every woman might think she has the right to feed her child the way she wants, but in actuality there is a sizeable population who wanted to bf but couldn't, and going on the scandi models this is more likely down to support issues than medical difficulties. so the 'rights' stuff is bull, imo.

OP, I fear that if your being unable to bf distresses you, this thread is just going to give you more ammunition to torture yourself with.

It is a fact (a sad one for you maybe) that you couldn't bf your DS and you can't do anything about that. It is highly unlikely that this is going to have any dramatic impact on his long term health if, as another poster mentioned, you look after his diet and exercise.

Life isn't perfect-I was lucky enough that bf worked out for us (and it is largely a question of luck, how the birth went, your physical make up, your state of mind post-partem, the support you get etc. rather than being a question of virtue) but sometimes DS eats shite and watches too much telly. You haven't hurt him by not bfing so stop looking for evidence that you have!

And YANBU, a little kindness goes a long way, especially for such an emotive topic.

if ff children are more prone to cancers etc as opposesed to bf, when would they have started this research? surely this would have had to have been done over many , many years and in that time havnt they been improved emensley even in the last 2 decades?

i don't think anyone can deny that bf is best because thats what its made for obviously, but it wasnt best for my ds. i was so tired and sleep deprived that the milk was low and rubbish, he couldnt latch and though we persevered with sheilds for 6 weeks we did far better ff.

i do not want to bf atall this time(due 4/6) but know that the hospital will not be happy. i will surely feel pressurised to try but am prepared to leave the hospital as soon as medically safe if they start getting to me.

there was so much pressure first time. i spent all the time in hospital at the expresser or in tears cause he couldnt latch.

the first 6 weeks were hell and there is no way i'm doing it again when i have a 2.9 yr to look after and move house by 4/7 as well.

i did not have anyone say anything to me when i gave up bf because 'at least i tried' but i did feel guilty when ds got eczema but then i remembered what my mum says: it's only my eldest brother who doesn't have any alergies and he was the only ff one of us.

do what you want and don't feel guilty. breast might be best, it might not be for you and really that is all that matters.

"Extreme bfs do like to congregate on MN (I guess they've got a captive audience).They like to scare ff mothers for many reasons"

that is laughable

"scaremongers who want others to feel crap because this is a parenting area they feel they excel in"

so is that

the 'anti bfing brigade' love to berate people tyring to set the record straight on breastfeeding when health professionals seem to be oddly inadequate. there is a handful of them - they congregate on mumsnet, and they jump on anyone talking about extremely positive experiences or trying to dispel the myths that amptamil is closest to breastmilk or whatever...

how ridiculous

Dd was breastfed until 11 months and I defy anyone to find me a sicklier teen. If you find me looking snootily at your bottle, you are safe to assume that it's the old green eyed monster rearing its ugly head.

Of course, we know the statistics and I have no doubt that statistically speaking they are correct. Doesn't mean your individual baby will be unhealthy just because of ff or that mine is healthy just because she was breastfed. Anecdotal experience is worthless when you are speaking about the general population, but it can still make a hell of a difference to the individual.

Would I breastfeed again if I had another baby? Yes I would, because the statistics are still there and it's the best we have to go on. And when it works, it's good.

Would I beat myself up if breastfeeding failed? No I would not, because I have learnt to my cost that there are so many factors in life that influence health and however much you follow the recommendations you still cannot guarantee that this is going to be the one defining factor. And I have also learnt something about the terrible costs to family relationships of mums beating themselves up over things they have little control over.

The best way to deal with any self righteous opinions towards anything that someone believes is their way or the high way is to completely ignore it and do whatever YOU think is right.