to think it's not helpful when people are overly negative about FF?

[lunartictoc]

Hi
Have been reading boards for a while under a different name, but wanted to post slightly contentious issue under new name.
AIBU to think that when discussing the merits of BF V FF, it is really unhelpful when some BF advocates try to strengthen their case with really negative comments/facts/ideas about FF? ie discussing how F-fed children are more prone to illness (including serious, like cancer) that it can lead to health problems for mothers, that it can cause obesity etc? I absolutely catergorically cannot BF my DS as much as I would have loved to - it is medically impossible. So I did a bit of research on FF, and many search engine results point here to MN. It scared me half to death reading what some posters have said about FF - I have no option, and without FF my son would have no milk at all! Some statistics (and indeed vitriol from the more judgemental posters) have just made me feel so upset and that I am being a bad mother, and damaging my DS in some way. I understand that pro-BF parents are keen to educate, and I understand that many F-feeders do so due to lack of support/education etc, but I think that there are many better ways to get across this message. Perhaps I am being over-sensitive, but some comments have really upset me! AIBU?

i don't think any person on here has laid the blame for the nation's health at the door of formula, milamae, in fact i think that your suggestion that they have goes some way to showing just how determined you are to have a fight where none exists. a pp said that we were all fed on formula and that we're all fine, that's all. i don't think that the nhs would agree, we're the sickest generation in history.

and to sterrryerryoh... you also seem overwrought, tbh. i believe that the feelings of people who never could have bf their adopted children should not be taken into account when trying to formulate a public health policy should not be allowed to skew the policy... that's hardly controversial or blinkered. but if you have them, i would be interested to know the figures of bf/ff babies who are adopted, as against the bf/ff infant population.

Agree, Aitch. The 'straw man' type of argument that surfaces in these debates is just daft. (Straw man = the idea that people advocating for bf are somehow routinely extremist, militant and that they blame all health problems on formula).

Similarly, the 'we are all fine!' argument is daft, too. I would love a grown up debate on these topics which uses a basic knowledge of science and the scientific method - nothing too difficult, just the acceptance that one person's personal experience does not trump research into many experiences, that risk does not equal predictive certainty.

And of course a public health policy has to go beyond the individual feelings of adoptive parents. It's like saying 'we can't promote healthy exercise for youngsters because some parents might be upset if their children have a physical disability and can't run/walk.'

Thanks for that explanation of straw man tiktok - i had visions of scarecrows?! Why is it called straw man though?

i think it's because the opposing argument doesn't deal with the issues, it puts up a false man in defence. i think.

Aitch "I don't think the NHS would agree we're the sickest generation in history" you conveniently omitted to mention the well documented reasons for this-food too high in fat,too little exercise,better diagnosis. So all in all a pretty pointless statement unless of course you were indeed trying to scare mothers into believing formula is to blame.

christ almighty. it was IN RESPONSE to someone saying that we're all fine... am i not allowed to respond to someone else's erroneous fact now, lest i hurt the feelings of a fellow ffer?

anyway, to return at long last to teh OP's point that we should 'talk up' bfing rather than talk down ff... i think that is current policy and it's not doing much good. so in answer to the OP, it's not helpful when people are overly positive about bfing, that's what all the posters say nowadays, it's all about protection from cancer risk for the mother without addressing the flipside, likewise weight loss, gastro etc etc etc. not that any of it is any use without support being in place.

Inferring all the woes of the NHS are down to formula wasn't actually needed as we both know-absolutely nothing to do with hurting the feelings of a ff.

Another problem is that those that would actually benefit from knowing the facts on formula and the health benefits of bfing (i.e. those who choose from the outset for ff or give up bf very quickly and are happy to switch to ff) are those who are least likely to seek information, or even be that worried (massive generalisation I know, but for the majority of people ff seems normal within their social groups).

Those that really tried to bf and are upset when it didn't work out despite trying all avenues, and who want to make an informed decision on ff are those that are likely to be searching for information and asking questions. They are also more likely to view negative information on ff in a personal way as it is really horrible to feel you haven't done the best for your child despite really wanting to (normally due to terrible support post birth). And again, it is usually those women who live in areas with a high bf rate who will have rl pressure and comments as well, so this compounds it.

Not saying the information shouldn't be out there or given in threads like these, but it's harder to see how to really make a difference and really get the message across to those who really need it. In the meantime it is those that have been let down, who have had the best intentions, who are then left feeling guilty (however irrationally).

Don't know what the answer is, just musing.

but i DIDN'T infer that all the woes of the nhs are down to ff. you are absolutely seeing things because you are gagging for a fight.

I firmly believe the single only thing that will help raise bf rates is more support.If women found it far easier to do they would do it for longer and with subsequent children. Only support will make it easier for women who find it harder.Facts,leaflets etc,etc have zero impact it's the actual physical help that does.

All this "talking up" and "talking" down does buggar all to help,you can talk all you like but if a mother is finding bf hell she will stop whatever she has read.

I also think that women should just push for more support and forget the rest,if we did we'd all be fighting the same cause instead of each other and as a result would make far more of an impact.

More support costs more than leaflets so all the time the powers that be can fob everybody off with a cheap leaflet instead of actual physical help they will do. All the time mothers battle over leaflets,info and stats the eye is taken off the ball.

Longtalljosie - if you read my previous posts, you will see that I had no idea that there was someone on MN called tiktok, and indeed I apologised to tiktok and disassociated myself from her as we have some opposing views and would never wish to upset or offend anybody. Don't call me "bloody rude" - get your facts straight before having a pop!

WHO is battling over leaflets?

By leaflets I mean getting info out there, talking it "up" or "down". It's all just rhetoric however you get it across.

The actual fact of the matter is if you don't know how to bf it just aint going to happen whatever you read or whatever is talked "up" or "down".

the OP is about talking bfing up without talking ff down, you do know that don't you?

there's no question that support is the key factor, but while posters are in use and while they normalise ffing by making bfing some unnattainable middle class high, we might as well change them too. i don't think anyone would dream of taking issue with the fact that support is needed, though, but the existence of the hugely lucrative advertising industry rather disproves your 'it doesn't matter whether something is talked up or talked down' line of argument. of course it matters. it's okay for both things to matter.

Support and leaflets and posters work together.

It is no use having support (personalised, face to face, informed) without the written and visual materials to complement it. And written and visual materials do work - otherwise we would have no advertising industry. When it comes to changing behaviours and expectations, written and visual stuff does not work on its own.

Many bf supporters - like me - spend a lot of time doing the personalised, face to face, informed stuff as well as belonging to organisations which do the written and visual stuff as well.

It's true that if women don't know bf is possible, or if it is culturally and socially difficult, or if they hit problems and can't resolve them, then statistics on risk are not going to help....but written materials do very often cover 'how to' issues as well.

Tiktok I had a diagram of bf alongside instructions propped in front of me whilst holding newborn twins in a rugby tackle. Did diddly squat in helping me to bf and encouraging me on.

The only thing that would have helped was a bf expert sitting right next to me for every single feed for the first few days.

AitchTwoZone - to be honest, I went off topic a bit when I responded to your previous post - I'm not really talking about bf or ff - as an adoptive mother, I had no option, and knew I never would, so it never featured for me. I just bristled a bit at what you wrote about adopters etc being in a minority and it seemed to imply that our needs and feelings are not important. I realise that you probably didn't mean it at all like that when you posted, and I was being a little over-sensitive. On a completely separate issue, it is so hard "normalising" adoption, that any derogatory (seemingly or otherwise) comment just sets me off. May I apologise? I know that this is completely at odds with the topic, and it just me jumping on my own personal soapbox, in a completely unnecessary fashion!! ;)

sure thing. no worries AT ALL. are you new on here? there are quite a few mothers who adopted their children on here, Kewcumber's story was the most amazing, we were all on tenterhooks until she got back from kazakhstan (or some other 'stan ).

milamae - you see, your post is an example of personal experience being offered as a trump card.

You were not helped by a leaflet when feeding your twins. I can believe it. You needed personal support. That does not mean that leaflets and other written and visual materials are no good, ever, for anyone.

Thanks for the hug Aitch! Rightbackatcha I am pretty new here, but I have read lots of the stories on the adoption thread - it's still a new world for me (here and in RL) but I'm embracing every minute of it (here and in RL!!!)

well, welcome to mn and maternity...

Post-natal wards are woefully understaffed so ladies wishing to bf are often given no help at all.

More money is needed in maternity services.

(Sorry if thats already been said).

If learning to bf from a leaflet was that easy Tictok everybody would be doing it. I'm a relatively intelligent person and found working out diagrams from the wrong side nigh on impossible to be frank.

There isn't exactly a shortage of literature around and bf rates are still very low so I think one can deduce that it isn't having much of an impact.

Instead of paying people to sit around pontificating,lecturing and suggesting new expensive wizzy ad campaigns that 9 times out of 10 alienate the very people they're aimed at it would be far more beneficial to put the money towards more staff in maternity wards. It's not exactly rocket science.

Well, MilaMae, you know what? I have never seen, heard or otherwise experienced, directly or indirectly, an expensive whizzy ad campaign for breastfeeding that alienated people '9 times out of 10'.

Do give examples, won't you?

I won't insist you give 10, of which only 1 got it right

I know of one expensive ad campaign - the one that included very good TV ads that ran (and which still could be running) a few years ago in Scotland, alongside a country-wide investment in training of HCPs and ground-level bf support groups. The ad campaign evaluated very well. I know of a cheaper one, in Norther Ireland, which also included a short TV ad, alongside training and support materials. Again, no reports of alienation.

My point is that effective promotion and training and support should be part of an integrated campaign. The person teaching you to bf twins can leave you something written/illustrated to help you when they are not there.

No one sensible thinks that leaflets are the only thing that work. Obviously, personal support from informed personnel is vital, too.