In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

[Alouiseg]

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

86.4% of statistics are made up on the spot...

DF - the point is, that as soon as I pointed out that many atheists cant design a moral framework on their own, you extrapolated to the pointed question "and christians can?" which obviously begged the answer no, which you have now confirmed in your last post.

I dont agree with you that the religious people have no advantage over the atheists when constructing a moral framework. They have the teachings of their religion, and are regularly encouraged to think about how to be a better person etc.

and oojamaflip and tinnitus - you don't give up your individuality, just because you join a religion. For example, the church of england is notoriously broad. As riven said, most of any religion is just window dressing. I hold religious views which would probably cause other members of the same religion as myself to scream in horror. But we get together regularly to think together about being better people, and that, imo, is a good thing, and means that I spend more time thinking about this subject than if I were just an individual.

lol UQD, I was hoping for a more explosive response

Why would bein an atheist prevent the formation of a moral framework? At least my morals are my own, I don't need them to be carved in stone on a mountain a few thousand years ago.

Can you please justify your position that "many atheists cant design a moral framework on their own", because its rather obviously nonsense, IMO.

soon as I pointed out that many atheists cant design a moral framework on their own,

um...what are 'Utilitarianism'? situation ethics? Social relativism? 'Existentialism?' 'Humanism?'

I think they're moral frameworks (or philosophies with associated moral frameworks)that aren't underpinned by any God.

Incidentally, as there is no God, all religious moral frameworks are essentially concoted without the requirement for a God (God is a wheel that does not turn...)

There was a guy on t'radio th other day, pointing out that researchinto whther religious people relly had a moral compass of some kind or not found - Basically that they didn't (though there was a specific shift on some issues where religions have pushed a single viewpoint)

nighbynight - where did I say that?

'Cause I didn't mean it if I did so I'd like to clarify if I gave that impression.

i think the Op should restate their original point in this form -

'i think people that believe that fairies dance at the bottom of the garden are deluded.'

I always find it particularly amusing when you get a Christian to say 'of course fairies dont...' and then you dig down, and find their belief is of a similar nature...just an unprovable feeling, not based upon the same kind of experiential data that ordinary 'the sofa is blue' type beliefs are based on.

How many people do you think read philosophy? those philosophies are completely irrelevant to most people.
We all accept the need to go to school to learn facts about maths, history geography etc, yet so many people think they are qualified to construct a coherent moral framework on their own, without teachers. In my experience, many of them make a hash of it. You just have to look around you at the number of f*d up people.
As MNetters are typically more educated than the general population (if the survey is to be believed), I am probably talking to people who are more qualified than most to think through moral questions. And as I observed below, nobody ever, ever admits that their own moral framework might be lacking (its like admitting you are a worse than average driver!). So I am certainly not expecting any atheists to agree that they personally might benefit from joining a religion!
Interesting that atheists are ready to hurl unpleasant insults at religious people (deluded etc), but react so strongly to an observation that is critical of some of their own number. My intention is not to offend, but you did ask why I thought it was worth joining a religion, and this is one of the reasons.

oojamaflip - some point in the early hours.

nighbynight - If it was this "nighbynight - The idea that millions of people acting together make better judgements than individuals, is dubious to say the least." then, for a start that was NOT the wee small hours, it was just 2 minutes after midnight ;)

And it was in response to your "I dont agree with you that the religious people have no advantage over the atheists when constructing a moral framework. They have the teachings of their religion, and are regularly encouraged to think about how to be a better person etc."

Do you not agree that the teachings of religon were created over a longtime by many, many people collaborating together?

How many people do you think read philosophy? those philosophies are completely irrelevant to most people.

most Christians i have met (other than those i studied theology/ philosophy alongside!)have very little understanding of the nderpinning thought processes of what their religion teaches. I find this pretty obvious when people discuss baptism etc on MN! That is because these thought processes are from centuris of theological learning, often influencd by the Greeks....and not very transparent to the layperson.

there are, in colloquial speech,reference to the ideas of the philosophies i mentioned

'the greatest good' (Utilitarianism)
'got to do whats right at the time' (situation ethics)
'do what you feel is right' (existentialism)

and so on. Thephilosohical expression of these ideas is really more a reflection, and logical work-through, of ways of thinkin that have always been around. People's thoughts have always been Godless, as there is no God - moral thought included.

nighbynight - most people whether theist or atheist do not actually work within any kind of moral framework at all most of the time. They operate on an 'instinct' of what is right or wrong which for most people in the UK is formed by growing up in a country with a broadly western judeo-christian tradition.

This may be non-optimal, but the answer is surely to get philosophy on the curriculum, not just grasp at an existing tradition as 'better than nothing'.

oojamaflip - no, religious people who attend services or meetings of their religion regularly, are not just going on instincts! They discuss this sort of thing at their meetings.

Of course religious moral framework was created by many people over many years - but as I already said below, just because you join a religion, does not mean you stop being an individual. We all know the dangers of taking a text written 2000 years ago and interpreting it literally. As I also already said, most religions, eg the C of E, are very very broad, and people have a wide range of opinions - but they have the help offered by their religion to make their own moral framework.
Incidentally, ex h, who was brought up muslim, said that Mohammed left provision for islam to be changed to adapt to the changing world, but that his followers decided not to adapt the religion, because so long after he was dead, he was so much revered by them, and they did not want to change what he had laid down. (no doubt muslim mnetters can put me right if I am wrong about that one?)

Nigtbynight

As you totally ignored my post on this subject, I'm going to repost it for you, just because I'm a nice person.

nighbynight

I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense at all.

If I, as an anti- theist, do a good act, you can be certain I wish to do good for its own sake.

If you believe you must do good or you will go to Hell, then I can question your morality and altruism because it is imposed. You are entirely handicapped in constructing your own moral framework because you are discouraged or forbidden from doing it at all. you are given one on a plate and you follow it because you fear God or his damnation, not because you might be a good person.

I'm not saying that faithfuls are necessarily not good, just that you have chosen to argue for religion on perhaps its weakest point.

eggy - you might be surprised at how many widely read people lead discussions about moral questions at church services or prayer groups (to name 2 examples). It is not necessary to have read jeremy bentham, or rousseau yourself, - people can have a good, intelligent discussion (or listen to one) when they havent. And you get these discussions and presentations at religious meetings and services.

Im sure you are a very nice person tinnitus, but please dont start trying to tell me what I think.

I dont fear hell fire or damnation actually - incredibly, just like you, I want to do a good thing for its own sake!
As I have already said twice, I am not handed a moral framework on a plate merely by joining a religion. I dont give up my individuality just because I go to church or mosque or whatever. As I also said below, there is an incredibly broad spectrum of opinions within the C of E.
I do gain strength, the benefit of other peoples study and thought and another viewpoint on important moral issues, and I do have the benefit of a weekly nagging session to be a better person.

As an atheist, you are giving up on all this support and help to be a better person - you must have a huge amount of faith in yourself that you can manage it by yourself. You see, you seem to think religious people are the ones with all the answers - from where Im standing, it looks the opposite, that religious ones are the ones with all the questions, and atheists are the ones with all the answers!

The deep rooted ethics behind religion are honest and decent morals.

It's only when highly powerful people (99.999% of the time, men). Manipulate peoples religious beliefs into politics that it becomes something more sinister.

However, people can believe what they like if you think it's bonkers then so be it.

"As an atheist, you are giving up on all this support and help to be a better person - you must have a huge amount of faith in yourself that you can manage it by yourself."

nighbynight - everyone is an individual whether theist or atheist. Theists are as likely to be intelligent as anyone else. Theists can have perfectly valid moral frameworks that need not rely on Theism.

The same is true of Atheists. Discussing moral issues is a good thing it is good that theists do it.

None of these issues present arguments for the existence of non-existence of god.

You seem to be expounding the view that whether or not god exists we should follow a religous tradition as you believe it makes us better people.

I'm a 'quaker' albeit ioine who cannot attend meetings but tries very hatd to live the lifestyle

I don't find it a patriarchal system at all

Am I deluded? I don't think so: I have a degree in world faiths and I know that to most people my beliefs are rubbish and that they could indeed have beebn a crutch over a rough time

I am happy if thats the case tbh, I still like where ,y faith takes me morally

I know the weight of evidence etc etc but it's just something I feel. I tried to dismiss and couldn't.

'As I have already said twice, I am not handed a moral framework on a plate merely by joining a religion'

I am a latecomer to faith and my morality did not chane when I found a system: rsther I found one that worked with the morality I already had, or it would have been incompatible.

Of course religion is a delusion - it is a denial of science on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.

People have the right to be deluded, that does not however make them any less deluded.

"As an atheist, you are giving up on all this support and help to be a better person"

I'm an Atheist who hasn't given up anything. How can I give something up if I never had it in the first place?

Religion didn't ever figure in my life and unless for some bizzare reason I become born agian it never will, nor in the lives of any children I might have.

Conversely, as a theist you are giving up on all this logic, reason and knowledge.

maybe I am not and Atheist at all. Maybe there is another word to describe someone untouched by religious belief?