In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

[Alouiseg]

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

can't be arsed to read whole thread........
but yabu
live and let live.
people believe in what ever they like.
it is not hurting you so why be so rude.

YANBU to have your own opinion but YABU if you think that you have the right to tell others how they should live with regards to faith. As long as they don't try to convert you to whatever they believe in you should do them the same courtesy.

RavingPaganTiggaxx

Was wondering who had the gall to create cuch a deliberately offensive thread title

Personally I'm agnostic, however I attend church occasionally with family - I believe Christian and family values to be much the sane thing, God or no, so a good environment for the kids. To a point.

However I do look at a nun/monk in a closed order and think that it's probably a terribly sad waste of their life.

Hah! Sane thing should read same thing!! Funny slip.

I don't get why people are saying the OP is BU.
If you don't believe there is a god then you are logically obliged to think that those who do are deluded.

"I don't believe in God"
"X does believe in God"

Therefore either
a) I am deluded
b) X is deluded
c) We are both deluded.
d) Neither of us is deluded.

c)and d) implies that god both does and does not exist.

a) Implies that I hold irrational beliefs. This is not something that most people believe strongly about themselves - thouggh they may accept it intelectually.

b) Is therefore a perfectly reasonable position.

What are you blithering on about re Africa vs God? A bizarre and silly analogy.
There are many pictures of Africa. There are millions of people from Africa. There are planes that fly to Africa, there are films and books and so on.... and I've been there.
Can you show me anyone who has a photo of "god" or has been to heaven and come back, can you show us a fruit indigenous to heaven or a refugee from there?
Thought not.

Africa= a easily demonstrable and proveable actual place. God/Heaven....Not, basically.

The role of respect here is crucial because there is no meeting gound between belief that God does not exist and faith. They are unreconcilable absolutes.

It may help to look at the way people use faith in their lives - it is often a belief and value system to abide by, and most of us have one of those whether it be humanist, communist, or muslim. It only matters if your own life and rights are affected adversely by someone else's belief.

Also, show respect and you will get it: just as it's nice when relisgious people espect those with no faith and do not condemn them, try to convert them, so it's nice when atheists take an interest, rather than dismiss. The roots of atheism were about having an open mind, avoiding doctrine - no need to be sneery and belittling in order to posit a perfectly rational pov.

If pressure is put on me to accept something that I find unacceptable, simply to satisfy someones religious beliefs, then I feel I am due a bloody good explanation.

If children are being abused, or mutilated, if women are denied access to education or justice, if homosexuals are treated as sub human, If tax payers money is payed out to religious organisations (as it is in the UK,) if the head of state is also the head of the church (making us a Theocracy,) and members of parliament cannot even take their seat in the house of commons without accepting the primacy of an unelected monarch and her church. If my towns market place is ringing to the frenzied beating of tambourines every Saturday, and my child has to endure assembly with evangelists in a non faith school, all because someone else has a belief in one of the many gods out there, then NO, faith is not good enough. I want evidence.

If religions affect so much of our daily lives, then rather than bleating on about how no one respects them, they should find some evidence to support their beliefs. the argument that "you must have faith" is offensive to reason.

The burden of proof is on religions. until then I can say with impunity, they are deluded.

Oh, LOL Alouise.. I wondered if it was you....

so you not kicking enough dust up on t'other threads so you have to come to AIBU and say something as divisive as this??? you are either very brave or an utter masochist!

Jeez are there any tin helmets, flack jackets and fireproof pants stong enough to save you getting barbequed to a crip?

You have made me smile, thanks!

Religion helps some to go through life, for others it holds no relevance at all.

If one group is not impinging on the other, then live and let live..

FWIW, for as much as a non-believer will look at those that do with incredulity and scorn, the believer will do the same.

Impasse, leave it as it is. Your opinion is exactly that, your opinion. The facts never will get in the way of this particular argument.

"We don't need religion to give us morality or control. Too many religions oppose each other. The state needs to be secular to stop the religions fighting."

I agree with this, but it's not relevant to your OP.

Tinnitus, I agree with challenging all those affronts to democratic and civil rights, but personally I don't want an explanation, I just want the government to uphold civil freedom for all. People can believe what they want, I don't particularly need more explanation. But I don't want them to be able to do the things you list (except play tambourines in public - what an affront to free speech such a ban would be), or to forcibly do things to babies that go against what we accept as civil rights.
Adults? Should they wish to flagellate themselves or wear a spiky garter or fast, well let them. But children must have a right under law to be protected from such stuff. And adults (typically women) who find that they are being forced into certain practices must also have the protection of the Human Rights Act.

Oh, yes, and well said Riven!

ooojimaflip, there is no need for us to be right, we all are happy and I do think it is the important bit. Our choices seems to be right individually, they do not need to be right universally do they?

Atheists can quietly think religious folk are deluded.
Religeous peeps can quietly get on with their belief systems.

Its the noisy ones of both types that piss people off, though to be fair atheists don't have the time-old traditions of crusading, killing and warring in the name of no-God.

Still, think whatever you like, just shut the hell up about it, IMO.

BleachedWhale

Just a side issue, but would a Satanist be granted the free speech to wave their trident about in the market place. If not then that really isn't free speech at all.

Also, can't face reading entire thread but would like to say that not all faith is patriarchal or used as a method of control. The assumption that there is no faith outside of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc is a bit too simple.

YABU, in short.

OP still hasn't said why we should all agree, just because she has made up her mind.
I think I am difficult, but if religion was banned I would be straight off to the nearest church and if we were told we had to go I would be refusing!
Everyone is free to make up their own mind and there is no need for people to tell them they are wrong.

Tinnitus: of course.
Free speech is nothing of the sort if restricted to those we agree with. The only boundary should be where it incites people to violence or intends to incite people to violence. So if a satanist was urging the shoppers to commit arson wherever single women live alone in cottages with cats, or a Welsh Nationalist urging the murder of holiday cottage owners or Christian Fundementalists whipping people into a frenzy in order to lead them to shoot an abortionist, then they shgould be stopped. But being advised to 'repent' doesn't usually lead to bodily harm or vigilante mobs.
Do you live in Salem?

gorionine - well all of your positions ARE either universally true or not.

yanbu it's also beyond dull listening to all the reasoning behind it so for that reason i try never to discuss other than to flatly state im not religious and want no part in any of it.

i do find it quite sad and a bit depressing to be honest a dire waste of energy at best and at worst justification for all manner of horridness

I keep it to myself mostly, as I don't like to offend people, but yes, in all honesty I think religion is an absolute crock of shit and I cannot understand why educated, otherwise sensible people believe such complete fairy stories.

BleachedWhale

True, But I believe that "moderate" religious believers provide a platform and camouflage for radical extremists, (and I include all faiths in this).

Billions of Christians or Muslims and millions of Hindus and Jews take offence at criticism of the rational of their lunatic fringe. some feel a degree of sympathy for their cause just because they share the same delusion about a God or Gods. and that provides protection for the mad men.

No I don't live in Salem, I live in Banbury, The old vernacular for a puritan is a "Banbury-man"

nighbynight - thank you. I will think for you.

boiledegg - not evidence, though. Several million people can still be wrong. And, in the great scheme of things, they're in the minority.

There is no scientific correlation between the number of people who believe something and the sensible likelihood of that thing being true. 96% of people believe Elvis isn't really dead, we were told yesterday by Gordon Brown...