In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

[Alouiseg]

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

I don't mind them being ridiculed or challenged-I just object to being told what I must believe because someone insists they are right and we all say 'Yes Ma'am, no Ma'am. 3 bags full Ma'am-how stupid of me not to have seen it for myself'!
Think what you like-just don't expect others to agree.

(The school curriculum is Christian-but we have been into all that before-or maybe Onestoptogo hasn't read the 1998 Education Act).

(I'm not sure where insurers stand with volcanic ash and act of God-if there is no such thing as an act of God!)

"-I just resent OP, and others, having made up their mind then telling the rest of us that we must think the same or we are deluded and oppressed. The oracle has spoken and we all jump to it! This is the reason why I always get involved in these debates, which are a complete waste of time! I think DCs deserve more than 'mummy has spoken and mummy is right'!!"

She said AIBU to think they are deluded. Do you have a problem with other peoples thoughts on your religious beliefs?

"I believe in God, I don't believe in fairies"

Please, can someone tell me what the difference is?

I agree when people say there are many things we don't understand. So, actually, does science. That's why it seeks to understand them.

Can anyone explain to me the logic or sense of filling the gaps in our understanding of the universe with something and calling it "god"? It seems to me to smack of a disgraceful lack of intellectual curiosity.

"Can anyone explain to me the logic or sense of filling the gaps in our understanding of the universe with something and calling it "god"? It seems to me to smack of a disgraceful lack of intellectual curiosity."

Agreed UnquietDad, it's also so about 3 centuries ago.

I think filling in the gaps with God is odd yes, but then I am a scientist (or was - am a science teacher now). But I don't think having God alongside the material world, and not of it, is necessarily lazy thinking. But then I would say that I suppose...

I don't care if it old-fashioned.

YANBU It will have been said before but -religion fills the gaps that science has yet to discover, it controls its subjects better than any State ever could, and is unnecessary in order to live a happy, kind and fulfilled life

piscesmoon, by religious groups trying to affect the school curriculum I mean how they try to infiltrate the teaching of science.

Unquietdad, you're spot-on.

Does that happen in any state schools then? Because we teach Science in the Science curriculum. I do remember one poster on here once talking about teaching Intelligent Design in Science lessons but it turned out she worked in a private school where I guess it's buyer-beware, and you have to hope the parents are in sympathy with those views.

'Do you have a problem with other peoples thoughts on your religious beliefs? '

Not if they keep them to themselves, I also have no objection if they are open to proper debate- but if they publically state that I am deluded and they are not-then I do have a problem.I have no problem if we agree to differ- but I do if I am expected to fall in with 'I know best and I am right'.

Chambers dictionary:
God-in the Christian and other religions, the supreme being and creator of the universe and the human race, an object of worship.
fairy-any of various supernatural beings with magical powers and more or less human shape, common in folklaw.

I'm not at all sure that I agree with the definitions but they are different-to answer GH.

an aside -I've got a question which I hope isn't a thread killer as I've been reading with interest. If you are a 'committed atheist' where do you stand on 'spirituality' in general then? i.e do you think that we are no more than the sum of our parts/ that there is no 'spiritual' side to humanity at all? Do we have a 'soul' even if it's not something that lives forever like lots of deluded religious people believe? I know it's not part of the debate but as there are lots of atheists on here I just thought I'd ask if anyone can be bothered to answer (agnostic, in case you were wondering)

Personally biddy, I'm all a bit meh about it. I don't like to think about afterlives and such like, and I think that over-emphasis on spirituality and souls takes attention away from living our lives in the moment.
I think there are many things that science has not explained, and that there are mysteries in the world, but none of these are answered by religion.

piscesmoon, I wasn't asking you to explain the difference between god and fairies to ME. Just to consider it.

Ask yourself (you don't have to tell me) what your reaction would be to someone saying "oh I was talking to the fairies in my garden yesterday and they said ...."

I don't know what your reaction would be. Perhaps you'd think "this is wonderful! I must go with her to see these fairies and talk to them"

But if it would be that she was talking nonsense then you should at least be able to see how some people feel about religious people.

biddyofsuburbia, until some evidence comes along then I'm working on the assumption that what you see is what you get. It's all we can do.

But it would be interesting if there were something else. I wouldn't mind an afterlife.

biddy, being atheist doesn't exclude being a spiritual person. Maybe my idea of being spiritual is not the same as a buddhist monk. I might be a very reflective person, with depth in values and thoughts, who tries to go beyond the surface. But I don't believe in new-age crap such as "halo", or "positive energy".

Being an atheist means I value my life, as I'm aware of the fact that there's nothing else afterwards. This might be bleak to many people (we're all scared of death), but we just have to earn to deal with our own mortality without the childish need to make up a supernatural being who's looking out for us.

I don't think we have a soul which continues after death or anything like that and I am not a spiritual person. I think spirituality is all a bit naff.

I believe in God and I'm not afraid of death, onestonetogo. (Only a stone, btw? Congrats! ) I wouldn't be afraid even if I thought it was just eternal nothingness, even though I don't. Why fear the absence of everything?

I believe...not sure really. I think some of the energy, some piece of who we were in life, goes somewhere. I don't know that it's a great meet-up of all your dead relatives or anything, but I think it's something.

But I do very much value my life, thank you. My grandmother, who is very religious, always says, "There's no use in being a person who is so Heaven bound that you're of no earthly good!"

And OP, though I think you're deliberately trying to be insulting and intagonistic, YANBU to think anything; you can think whatever you like of course.

er, antagonistic.

biddyofsuburbia

Believe it or not I'm quiet comfortable with the idea of ghosts and ESP, but I don't think much of it is outside of science. It would take a long time to explain but try "supernature" by Lyal Watson, and you'll get the picture.

In brief, many of the things we might consider supernatural have at some time been put to the test under rigorous scientific scrutiny, Mostly during the cold war, with surprisingly consistent results.

Also, the house I grew up in was haunted to hell.

So if god sends all souls to heaven/limbo/hell. where did they all come from? You see, the evidence of my own experience, disproves god existence.

Is it fear of death or attachment to one's own personality, though?

'Ask yourself (you don't have to tell me) what your reaction would be to someone saying "oh I was talking to the fairies in my garden yesterday and they said ...."

I actually know some very strange people-if they want to believe in it, and it doesn't hurt anyone-I don't see why it matters to me.

I can see that anyone who has a very practical nature, and has to have something in concrete form, isn't going to believe in God but they should realise that is them, some of are seeking more than the concrete and we don't have to have it in concrete form.

My only point is that people may believe what they choose but they should all respect those who think differently and if they think they are deluded they should quietly keep it to themselves.

I suppose the difference for me 'between God and fairies' would be Jesus Christ.

Now, I know all the arguments, all the oh-but-that-was-a-few-nutters-two-thousand-years-ago-and-has-been-changed-ever-since etc etc. But I am a theologian, and despite many years and much reading I still remain convinced by the compelling evidence for his life, death and resurrection, and the words written down by his followers. But if a little bit of history was all I had to base it upon I would indeed be that two sandwiches short of a picnic many of you appear to think those with faith are. The point for me is that it's the difference it all makes in my life now, and the compelling evidence of Jesus alongside the work of God I experience from day to day.

Now yes, as I said before, I do appreciate that from the outside this seems complete idiocy. But I'm happy to be an idiot. My faith means everything to me, is not simply a crutch or something I do for a little hobby. I've read The God Delusion, but it appears I remain deluded

I'm right there with you, madhairday.

I just really don't see the point of arguing, I guess. We aren't going to change each others' minds and it's such a deeply personal thing. As long as someone's faith, or lack thereof, doesn't hurt anyone else I'm quite content to leave them be, and hope they extend me the same courtesy.

I do know someone who believes in fairies. Who cares? I'm woo myself-I've got the rabbits and everything!

onagar makes the interesting point that a lot of us who don't believe would quite like there to be an afterlife. And yet we still can't believe in it. Its not something we don't want to happen - far from it.

And yet, no matter how much we might want it, we can't assume there is one when there's not a scrap of evidence. I mean, it's like somebody telling you about the best holiday resort they've ever been to, and not having photos or being able to locate it on the map.

It would be great, actually. I'm thinking of all the time I'd have to get all those books read and box-sets of old TV shows watched. Assuming we were allowed to do what we wanted, of course. I rather get the idea that, in the Christian idea of heaven, a lot of the things I'd like to spend eternity doing might be banned (eating and drinking, watching Doctor Who, partying with Girls Aloud, when they finally got round to having the decency to join me up there... (imagine me looking down and going "more drugs, Sarah, more drugs! You're needed! Don't forget to repent at the door or the bloke with wings will send you in the Down lift.") (*)

If there were an Eternity I'd probably want to spend the first few hundred years or so just browsing the library. Then I'd start making up the list of dead celebrities I wanted to shag meet.

(*)In fact I'm actually convinced most of the interesting people would be down in the Other Place, where all the best parties would be happening.

Nah, you see, UQD, I'm convinced we will get to watch Doctor Who as much as we want in Heaven, along with everything else that's good. I believe God made us creative and fun, and all that wonderful art, literature etc out there all reflects God's image in us. The other place? Nah, it's a place of no imagination. No fun whatsoever