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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To Pretend to be Catholic

201 replies

Aeschylus · 14/04/2010 20:43

For our DS to get a School place.

Basically the best primary school in our area is Catholic, and quite frankly I think religion is all a load of old mumbo jumbo.

However we are at a dilemma as to if we should lie and cheat so he gets a place.

ofsted report is fantastic, spoke to the head and he wants to meet us, we wont have a chance if we dont say we are Catholic. I know of some parents who lie about their address to get the school they want, but is this a step to far.

What do you think?

OP posts:
ooojimaflip · 15/04/2010 11:19

Rationing state school places on the basis of religon is unreasonable. I don't think pretending to follow that religon in order to put yourself in the position you should have been anyway is any more unreasonable.

Too much like hard work for me though.

Tortington · 15/04/2010 11:23

they will ask for the baptism certificate of your children.

if you can't find it - as we had moved and i couldn't- you can phone your old parish and order one,

also its a small community, this community of priests, the priest who conducted the service as my mums burial, knew my priest - at the other end of the country.

so there is no pretending i'm afraid.

unless you pretend you are catholic and then go through lessons and church to get your children baptised?

if you are willing to put the time into this 'mumbo jumbo' as you call it - then go for it

but don't moan like a bitch when your dc come home with pictures of jesus and want to say bedtime prayers, and have to go to church on holy days with the school

its one thing for you as an athiest to apply to a religous school and say " i am an athiest, can my dc have a place?" then if they get a place say to your children " i do not believe in god but some people do it's your choice' ( it not really being a choice as the parent is the biggest influence ...not the point ...anyway) MUCH MUCH different from

pretending to be catholic
going for baptism instruction
getting your children baptised
sending them to catholic school

thentelling your kids you don't really believe in it - as they will have been EMERSED in it - and you will be quite frankly confusing them a LOT. you will be fucking with their whole life structure - home, school, god.

so think carefully

Kneazle · 15/04/2010 11:27

I find this thread very interesting. Where I live the only state secondary is a christian one (not catholic). Almost everyone here suddenly finds religion when they have a child. I didn't do this and as a result my dd goes to a school where only 24% get GCSEs a - c. I was treated like I had done something terrible to my child by most people in RL and yet most people on here say it is wrong to pretend.

ooojimaflip · 15/04/2010 11:29

I just don't think I could keep a straight face while pretending to believe in god.

GrimmaTheNome · 15/04/2010 11:37

If everyone who wasn't really religious would just stop doing this, then the problem would resolve. The community schools would get better, the faith schools (those that still had enough kids) might find they weren't quite so brilliant after all.

The problem is of course, each of our individual children only has one shot at school so of course we dont want to sacrifice them for our principles or the good of everyone else.

longfingernails · 15/04/2010 11:40

Question: why do faith schools do so much better with their results?

There is obviously something about them that works. What is it?

As an agnostic, I doubt it is simply the Lord God blessing His bounteous flock. Personally, I don't like the indoctrination element but would be perfectly willing to endure it for the sake of better educational outcomes, countering the doctrinal elements at home.

To all those who say you should get rid of faith schools: why dismantle what works? Why get rid of schools which get good results?

Why not try and raise the unsuccessful up, instead of knocking the successful down?

LadyBiscuit · 15/04/2010 11:50

longfingernails - because anyone who is prepared to sit through hours of boring mass every sunday or whatever just to get their child into a decent school clearly cares a lot about education and so is going to support their child. Faith schools are also an excellent way of excluding large swathes of the immigrant population so there are far fewer children who don't have English as a first language.

Grimma I agree with you but who is going to sacrifice their children's education on the basis of principle? Not me

PeedOffWithNits · 15/04/2010 11:55

grimma is spot on, the parents trying everything to get their kids into a better school, whether faith or not, are part of the problem, thats how we end up with sink schools, and it becomes a viscious circle.

TheFallenMadonna · 15/04/2010 11:57

Depends on your population I suppose. Near us, the highest number of EAL students are Eastern European, particularly Polish. Very Catholic. The non-Christian "immigrant population" would be largely Pakistani and are of much longer standing, so although the English may be an additional language, it is certainly a fluent one for the children.

ooojimaflip · 15/04/2010 11:57

Longfingernails - it's not the faith aspect that makes the schools better - it's the selection aspect. Should we make all schools selective then? What about the children no school selects?

Kneazle · 15/04/2010 12:15

"Grimma I agree with you but who is going to sacrifice their children's education on the basis of principle? Not me" Apparently i did. However, dd is an A grade student in every subject and id very happy. Funny though that preferring not to be a liar is considered the equivalent of boiling your own child in oil. I value education a great deal and so does my dd BTW.

Tiredmumno1 · 15/04/2010 12:16

You cant blame the op for wanting the best education for her kids, dont we all. and my dh does not pray every night or draw pictures of jesus maybe i should grass him up to the church .

all children deserve to get the best education whether your bloody baptised or not. i wouldnt baptise my kids or force any kind of religion on them, they can have that choice themselves as they get older

DastardlyandSmugly · 15/04/2010 12:18

In my area the local faith school is wonderful but so are a lot of the secular schools; however, I obviously couldn't influence getting DS into those and he has been rejected from all four schools that we applied to (three secular, one faith for an open place).

The only way I could have influenced the decision on offering DS a reception place is to join the church of the faith school and cosy up to the vicar. As I said, in hindsight, being in the middle of going through this, I wish we'd done it.

I do feel like I've let my DS down

seanchai · 15/04/2010 12:21

Just for information, and this might not be exact because I don't have the documents in front of me, being on maternity leave, there is quite a strict criteria of getting into a Catholic school.

The first children taken in are 'cared for' children, kids who are in state care and fostered, etc. It is not particularly important, I don't think, which religion they are. These children need as much care and positive imput as possible and Catholic schools recognise their responsibility here.

Secondly, children who live in the parish catchment area and have been baptised and are - and their siblings - are next on the list. I don't think you have to go to Mass regularly to qulaify here, but I've no doubt it would go in your favour.

Thirdly, I think, correct me if you know better, baptised Catholics who apply from other parishes get in and then non-Catholic Christians from the local area and then children of other religions.

Catholic schools are not state schools, but pay the state to have the privilege of having a school which is founded on and tries to live out the beliefs of the faith and this is why they are usually very good schools because they offer something above and beyond basic education.

No religion is perfect, as they as all man-made, but, frankly, it pisses me off when people comment so forthrightly on how its a loads of 'mumbo jumbo' and then try to get the benefits whilst ignorantly slagging the religion off.

It would be nice, in an ideal world, if people had a bit of respect for or sensitivity towards those of us who are just little people trying to live our lives in a way we think is best instead of being arrogant and thinking that they have it all right and we're stupid.

But hey, that would be an ideal world.

JGBMum · 15/04/2010 12:27

All schools select:

by ability (grammar schools)
by wealth (independent schools)
by catchment area (middle class parents buying up property in catchemnt areas of good schools)
or by religion (faith schools)

Of the above, the one you have most personal control over and that is not dependant on your income, class or child's ability is the faith school.

As a previous op has said, the faith schools usually serve a larger geographic area so there is a very mixed intake. In our case, our primary school serves 3 towns, and our secondary school intake covers 8 towns across 2 counties.

shockers · 15/04/2010 12:29

YABU !

Sweeedes · 15/04/2010 12:33

Only someone totally irreligous could go through with such a pretence. I wouldn't/couldn't do it.

But turning away children from a school based on their parents' religious beliefs (or lack of) is spectacularly revolting and un-Christian too.

So I'm torn.

Sweeedes · 15/04/2010 12:35

GimmatheGnome Good post. Agree.

DastardlyandSmugly · 15/04/2010 12:36

In my area the schools are so oversubscribed that the catchment has become miniscule. Our closest school (which we have been rejected from even though we are only 600m away) has a governer who lives on my road.

Tiredmumno1 · 15/04/2010 12:36

Well said sweeedes, it is very un-christian.

shockers · 15/04/2010 12:40

If it's the selection aspect that makes the schools better, are you saying that Catholics are naturally more academic oooji?

I work in a Catholic school and I would say that what makes our school good is the nurture and family atmosphere.

It's a fairly small school too, only 200 pupils.

BUT we have a fair few pupils with social problems and SEN mixed with the children of families who have been at the school through the generations.

I'm not Catholic BTW.

Kneazle · 15/04/2010 12:41

Well said Sweeedes it makes the whole system so ridiculous that these schools are full of people who think it is OK to lie to get what they want.

shockers · 15/04/2010 12:44

It's not unchristian. The parish church usually supports the school. It's about community. If you're not interested in being part of the church community, why should you take a school place from someone who is?

Plus... as has been previously stated, first preference is given to Looked After Children where possible.

ooojimaflip · 15/04/2010 12:57

seanchai - Catholic schools are Volutary Aided so the state pays 90% of the costs. I'd call that a state school. I don't think you can pat yourself on the back too much about 'cared' for children either as this is a government requirement not a voluntary arrangement.

Tinasan · 15/04/2010 12:57

I would looove to OP trying to carry off being a Catholic for a few months - if in doubt use your catchphrase - praise the Lord! I reckon it'd be easier to walk into an operating theatre and tell everyone your a Brain Surgeon (I'm a Catholic btw and if I hadn't been taken to mass every week from birth I doubt I'd have mastered it all). Go for it OP, you'll provide endless entertainment for the school and Parish Priest!

Seriously - I think the OP is a wind-up. I know many people who manipulate the system (rightly or wrongly) to get a place at faith school, but none of them have the arrogance to think it'd be as easy as rocking up at the church to be baptised...