stopping my kids going to a Catholic Church

[jennyslinger]

I know religion is contentious so I'd like to say up front that I am a confirmed atheist and my DH is a confirmed catholic. This is not about the rights or wrongs of believing in god.

DH wants DS and DD (when she's 4yo) to go to our local Cathocis church to attend sunday school and get involved with other church activities.

I have read so much over the last few years about the child abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church. For this reason I have told DH and his family that the kids will not be going.

DH says I am fussing over nothing.

I asked DH he knew a nursery had covered up child abuse would he be happy with the kids going. He says this is not the same.

Am I being unreasonable?

If they married in a Catholic church, OP would have had to agree to allow her dc to be brought up as Catholics, she did not need to convert mama, they may have married in a different setting in which case of course she would not have been required to do that even - registry office, Anglican church

I think OP they are your dc and I too am a protective mother and might feel uneasy sending my dc somewhere if I held grave doubts about how they might be treated.

I am Catholic. I would say your dc are absolutely safe from child abuse whilst attending a Catholic mass and Sunday school. They are in public IYSWIM? I don't what other church activities your dh wants them involved in, soical life of the church, religious instruction for first holy communion etc? I don't think at all that abuse need worry you as an issue in those situations.

However if you have a profound fundamental dislike of his church, I think this is a deeper issue. It is a bit unfortunate that this was not somehow discussed and clarified before you had dc but now for the sake of your marriage, you need to get your thoughts clear and have a serious but loving discussion with your dh about your own fears, concerns in a non-combative manner so that you two can find a workable solution for your family.

I could see a marriage breaking down over something like this tbh. It is quite a big issue if you both feel strongly and hold opposing beliefs. Good luck.

My church has a Sunday school. Its called the children's litergy group. There are 6 of us on the team and at least 2 of us do the group at any one time. If only one of the 6 was available on any given Sunday we don't run it. We discuss the readings from the mass and talk about the gospel in a child appropriate way. The dcs come back into the main church after the collection/before prayer over the gifts.

My DH is not Catholic but fully respects my faith. We had many discussion whilst we were dating about the implications of a mixed mariage. Obviously our views had to be sorted out in our priests mind before he agreed to marry us and later baptise our children.

kathyjelly, the reason for her worries are relevent to me. If someone says they don't want their children to go to Catholic church because the don't believe in God at all/are a member of a different religion or other church community/are Catholic but disagree with some aspects of doctrine and can't reconcile that then fair enough but to say that they think that their child will be abused by the sunday school teacher because that teacher is Catholic (like me) and helps with childrens litergy (like me) is offensive (to me). I'm not saying the abuse didn't happen. I'm not saying the cover up didn't happen. I'm not saying that Catholics can't be child abusers. I'm not saying the it was in the past so it doesn't matter. I'm saying that for her child to be with two or more crb checked adults and other children for 30 mins in a room next to the room her father and other family are in, in a room where any parent could walk in at any moment has a risk associated with it. That risk is not hightened or reduced because the two or more crb checked adults are Catholic.

I don't think the OP is necessarily a bigot, nor do I think she's stupid. I think she may be worrying about a situation that isn't going to happen, in that her dcs aren't going to be alone with any priests and that hopefully child protection issues are being taken seriously now within the Church.

But given the RC Chruch's track record, can you blame her? Really? I wouldn't want my ds to be involved with an organisation with a track record like that. Not because he might be in danger, but because of what the whole dreadful story says about the clergy's atttitude towards the outside world.

Yes abusers have operated in other organisations and of course not all RC priests are/were rapists, but the extent of the cover up, the arrogance, is quite spectacular.

However OP, if your objection is because you think your dcs will be in danger, then YABU.

Children's Liturgy (version of Sunday School)is run by laypeople in our church, and there are always two or more adults (CRB checked)present at any time (as well as loads of parents staying there with little ones). But most of the time, children would be with parents in Mass.

This thread really confirms my thought that the only people you can abuse and get away with it are Catholics, Germans and the ginger.

I don't think anyone has had a go at Catholics, Katty. The abusers among the clergy, the people that colluded with them to cover it up, yes. But not Catholics per se.

It is Catholics per se who are running the Childrens' litergy groups where the OP thinks her child will be abused. The clergy don't excuse themselves from mass to 'junk model' Noah's Ark with other peoples toddlers.

SolidGoldBrass Thanks, you hit the nail on the head perfectly for what I wanted to say, agree totally...

Fair enough, tapeworm. I assumed the OP fears her dcs will be at risk from abuse by preists specifically, not that she has a problem with Catholics generally.

Jenny I'm only halfway towards believing that you're being serious.

The main issue is that you allowed your children to be Christened. In doing so you agreed to bring up your children as Catholics. I'm not surprised at your DH's consternation, given this. Any issues should have been worked out a long time ago.

Sunday School -- in my Catholic experience comprises a single room with separate 'off shoots' of different aged children, and numerous adults. CRB checks are now a standard legal requirement - so you can at least be sure that none of those involved with your children have been convicted of child abuse.

The Church is trying extremely hard to redress the frankly evil things that happened in the past. I'd been 99.9% sure that there are no current cover ups. I have been frankly horrified to hear the likes of Stephen Fry being tabloid-esq about Catholics as a whole.

Incidentally sex abuse in the Catholic Church stands at the same level as sex abuse in the general populations, so the OP are right RE: their comments about scouts, etc...

I'd class myself as agnostic now and I don't agree with a lot of the things the Church does (e.g. I think condoms should be seen as positively sacred in countries with a high prevalence of AIDS). But I find your parroting out of Dawkins-esq statements about Science disproving religion both ill-thought-out and ill-informed. Terry Eagleton has written a very interesting book on the subject that you should check out.

I'm not a Catholic and it's true that the current news stories don't make me more likely to join that Church.

But this is something you need to work out with your dh. And tbh I do think it's a disproportionate reaction. Why was the Church looking after so many children? - because Jesus said that every child is important, whatever gender, however young, however unwanted, whatever they are like. That was a radical statement then, and it's a radical statement now.

Did you read an article a few weeks ago by a Chinese journalist who was staying with a rural family in China when a girl was born? The baby was thrown in a bucket to die.

I'll say it again, the baby was thrown in a bucket to die.

Because she was a girl (and possibly IIRC because she had a disability), and because the one-child policy is effectively enforced in rural areas; there was simply no way the family could afford to keep that baby if she couldn't contribute her full years of work, and if she needed a dowry.

Are you going to refuse to buy anything from China as a result?

The quickest way to make Catholic children unsafe is for people who are not abusers to leave the church and abandon it to those who do see any community organisation as a quick route to unsupervised children.

If your dh is willing to take your children to mass, and to do whatever you require of him to keep them safe, then I do think he has a case to pass on his own faith to them.

TBH it's a bit odd to have Christians saying they will 'tar and feather' convicted paedophiles/those who covered up. Justice, yes, but what about hating the sin and loving the sinner?

OtterinaSkoda - do you feel invisible on this thread? because I certainly do!

YANBU. Don't get me started on religion and the harm it does to children's emotional development! You may wanna visit this site, where I'm sure you'll find lots of useful information (you could post the same question there). Good luck!

www.rational-skepticism.org/

seeker

I don't give a monkey's what you think of the Catholic religion or the Church. What has me angry is the fact that you assume that every Catholic you meet in the street is going to sexually abuse your children. Have you any idea how offensive that is?? Think about it. Use that thick, bigoted head of yours and think about what you are suggesting. I am Catholic, I have a 2.2yo daughter. What do you think I do to her at bathtime? When i'm alone in the house with her when DH is at work? What do you think I do with the children at liturgy group, take them off into the toilets? I was a nanny for about 12 children over the years, good time to be had there eh?

If you seriously can't see what you're suggesting is hideous then I give up. You are without a doubt the
most stupid person I have come across on here and you've had some competition over the years.

Well if you don't want to send your children to Catholic schools there'll be 2 less children applying for heavily oversubscibed schools then.

I can understand your unease at the children
being exposed to a religion that you're not comfortable with but they'll get a bloody good education! Catholic schools are oversubscibed for a very good reason.

I went to C of E church through my childhood and a C of E secondary school. I am more a less an atheist now but that's my choice. Most of my friends at school are no longer religious either but at least we were exposed to the church to give us the choice.
I think the abuse issue is just an excuse IMHO!

I am not Catholic but I think there's far worse things your children could become!

Rockbirdisdrinking, how very typically Christian of you . You have to face the facts that paedophiles rates are much higher among "men of the cloth" than the overal population... This doesn't mean that every priest is a perv, but every priest is much more likely to be a perv than the average stranger in the street.
Anyway, the reasons why OP shouldn't send her DC to church/faith school is not just because of the worry of sexual abuse, but also because of the harm that would be caused to her DC by religious indoctrination.

I presume, when you had your children baptised, you had to promise to bring them up as Catholics. A bit hypocritical, don't you think, if you had no intention of doing so.

By the way, there has been lots of cases of children being abused by teachers and by uncles and neighbours. Are you going to refuse to send your children to school, or to family celebrations or to let them play in their friends' houses? YABU.

The OP was going along with her husband's wishes when her children were baptised. As a non-believer she owes the church nothing and wasn't being particularly hypocritical. She didn't feel particularly strongly about it - and didn't feel it was worth arguing against.

I'm church of england, but I think that you are being a bit dramatic. Jmho. it's all very different now. every person involved with the sunday school will be vetted. Also, i think it was the hierarchy of the catholic church who need to be launched into outerspace on the back of a large turd. A lot of the lowly priests (most of the them, the majority of them) are decent christian people....

seeker...maybe people ignore you because you talk bollox...

...I have just read some of the posts on here are yours are truly shocking...

In what way are seeker's posts shocking, DP?

Ok, maybe not shocking because not alot shocks me...

...she is just so insulting of catholics...I've been on threads with her before...she's all for secular schools so she has an agenda here.

The abuse of children by catholic priests was terrible...no one would deny that, but they were a minority...the vast majority of catholic priests/nuns do fantastic work around the world...and will continue to do so...

I don't think a non Catholic should be expected to understand the gravitas that Catholics put on baptism and Mass attendance. She can't unbaptise them now and she shouldn't be made to keep a promise that she didn't really understand when she made it. Her DH and the priest have fallen short here.

The harm of religious indoctrination may well be a valid reason for not taking your child to church but it is not to OPs reason. There are many reasons to not go to church. Not believing in God is a good one. Saying that Catholic lay people cannot be trusted to contain their urge to rape children in a public place purely because they are Catholic is not one. I am really upset to think that this is how people think about me.