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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

stopping my kids going to a Catholic Church

576 replies

jennyslinger · 17/03/2010 22:57

I know religion is contentious so I'd like to say up front that I am a confirmed atheist and my DH is a confirmed catholic. This is not about the rights or wrongs of believing in god.

DH wants DS and DD (when she's 4yo) to go to our local Cathocis church to attend sunday school and get involved with other church activities.

I have read so much over the last few years about the child abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church. For this reason I have told DH and his family that the kids will not be going.

DH says I am fussing over nothing.

I asked DH he knew a nursery had covered up child abuse would he be happy with the kids going. He says this is not the same.

Am I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
seeker · 18/03/2010 11:19

I would be very interested to hear why my desire to send my child to a secular school givbes me more of an aganda on a thread about clerical child abuse than a practising Roman Catholic has.

I would also like to know when I have been insulting to Catholics.

i would also like to know what I have said that is shocking.

The huge majority of Catholic priests, like the huge majority of human beings, are good, kind people doing a good job. A few are not. Just like any other organization. The point here is how an organization deals with the vanishingly small minority of bad people. The Catholic Church dealt with them by cover up and collusion at the highest level. That is the ral scandal here.

RockbirdisdrinkingGuinness · 18/03/2010 11:19

"I'm just not willing to risk anything like this happening to my kids"

sorry onestonetogo, what bit of that statement is confusing you? I apologise profusely if my objecting to being branded a paedophile is not very Christian of me. I forgot that Catholics are the only whipping boys left. Why don't you try reading what she's said?

Onestonetogo · 18/03/2010 11:20

oh please stop this nonsense about how baptism is a bloodpact to bring your DC up as christians... would you say to someone who got married in a church that they shouldn't be able to get divorced?? Get over the silliness. Yes, I know, religious dogma is very silly indeed, doesn't mean we should be too

amidaiwish · 18/03/2010 11:22

gave up reading at page 4 but just wanted to say a few things

  1. i don't believe this is for real.
  2. if it is for real, then i have never heard of a priest agreeing to baptise children unless both parents agreed to it, and unless both parents agree to "bring the children up in the catholic church". Infact you can't get married in a catholic church unless you agree to bring up any children as catholics
  3. good luck with your marriage. i give it a couple of years.
Onestonetogo · 18/03/2010 11:23

Rocking, OP was talking about priests, not you. Priests do have a lot of unsupervised access to children, be it in a church or a faith schools. Whether you like it or not, a priest is much more likely to be a child molester than any other stranger. Deal with it.

Onestonetogo · 18/03/2010 11:27

seeker, really, you must have some sort of revolutionary agenda up your sleeve for not wanting your DC to be indoctrinated!

RockbirdisdrinkingGuinness · 18/03/2010 11:28

Of course seeker, no one is arguing with that at all. But that wasn't the fault of the millions of Catholics around the world who are just getting on with their lives in the best way they can and are totally disgusted with what happened. I'm a mother, if I so much as suspected any wrong doing in my church the police would be there in a shot. Being baptised doesn't make you a child abuser and that accusation is what is really upsetting me. Outside of that people can have whatever opinions they like (obviously!), I'm not bothered but that is offensive and upsetting.

There was a thread recently related to this here. It went into why Catholics don't abandon the Catholic church and is worth a read if you weren't there at the time although seeker I think you might have been there, can't remember who was posting.

OtterInaSkoda · 18/03/2010 11:29

But tapeworm, I don't think anyone here does think that Catholics are a danger to children. This bothers me - I don't see that anyone is claiming that Catholics are paedophiles.

There have been suggestions (with which I'm inclined to agree) that some people outside of the clergy colluded with the cover up. But saying that is not the same as saying that all Catholics are dangerous.

RockbirdisdrinkingGuinness · 18/03/2010 11:34

Rely onestonetogo? You have research and stats to say that have you? OK let's assume she was talking about priests although I don't think she specified. How on earth can ou say that a priest is more likely to be a child abuser than anyone else?? That is an absurd statement.

amidaiwish · 18/03/2010 11:35

onestonetogo "Priests do have a lot of unsupervised access to children, be it in a church or a faith schools."

i was in catholic schools from age 5-18
my dds are in a catholic school
i have NEVER been in the company of a priest alone. nor have my DDs. not that i would be worried about it, but it has never happened. how would it have? the closest i have been to a priest was in my pre-marriage talks with the priest and dh.

when do you think priests have access to all these kids?

AbsOfCroissant · 18/03/2010 11:36

Hm. I think it's a bit weird blaming Catholicism for paedophilia (not a Catholic BTW). Some of the worst abuse recently was carried out in a regular kindergarten (the one in Plymouth), but that doesn't mean all kindergartens are filled with paedophiles.

I would find it strange to marry someone who's religious/philosophical views are so fundamentally different to my own. What you believe can be the cornerstone of your life, and can affect every aspect of your life, what you eat, say, drink (or not), how you dress, how you raise your children etc. etc. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life with someone who's world view I didn't share

RockbirdisdrinkingGuinness · 18/03/2010 11:36

Meant to add, that our church is very very busy, young congregation, loads of kids. The priests have very little contact with anyone. Liturgy groups are run by parents, baptism etc classes are taken by nuns. Are we accusing them as well?

swanandduck · 18/03/2010 11:38

Otter

When you are having a child baptised you are asked if you undertake to ensure that the child is brought up in the Catholic faith and you have to answer 'yes'. If the poster answered 'yes' with no intention of doing so she was being hypocritical and making a mockery of an important Catholic sacrament. Saying she 'couldn't be bothered to argue' with her dh is not an excuse, in my opinion.

RockbirdisdrinkingGuinness · 18/03/2010 11:39

x post amidaiwish

Original poster
jennyslinger · 18/03/2010 11:44

The anger in this thread does at least highlight the deep shame that many feel for the systematic child abuse within Catholic Church.

That is re-assuring.

OP posts:
abride · 18/03/2010 11:47

As one who has worked in a Catholic Sunday School I can promise you that the security process is rigid. We had to go on child protection courses, training courses and be CRB checked.

The priest had no contact with the children at all unless we were there.

seeker · 18/03/2010 11:48

I don't think anyone has said on this thread - apart from the op - that all Catholics are paedophiles or that children are at risk at Sunday school, or any complete rubbish like that.

The trouble is, that this sort of bonkers accusation is easy to get offended by and to shoot down. It is then easy to avoid answering the serious genuine questions about the way the Church dealt with, and is dealing with the issue.

daftpunk · 18/03/2010 11:48

Not getting into an argument with you seeker...but I know you have an agenda.

I admit The cover up was almost as bad as the abuse.....but if you think the catholic church are the only organisation good at cover ups I suggest you read up on the babyP case.

..Ofsted don't come out very well...they are pretty good at "losing" reports .

boiledeggandsoldiers · 18/03/2010 11:50

jennyslinger, although the child abuse scandal is completely awful, I think the analogy of not using any nurseries because of the Plymouth nursery case is a good one. Unless your local church is implicated in the abuse, just do as you would in a secular situation such as choosing a nursery for your children. Go to the church and meet the people who will be supervising, pay attention to your gut instincts, ask questions. Any Sunday school workers will need an enhanced CRB check just like anywhere else.

But I sense it runs deeper than this and maybe the first step is to have an honest talk with your partner. Sorry if I repeat anything, have not read whole thread.

Original poster
jennyslinger · 18/03/2010 11:50

So CRB says you have no record for being caught for abusing a child? It is my understanding that it doesn't actually identify people who do not have a conviction?

OP posts:
tapeworm · 18/03/2010 11:52

The OP is talking about the risk of abuse to her children in Catholic sunday school. She is not saying she has a moral objection to the abuse cover up which leads her to want to distance herself from the church.

She is saying that she is not going to risk anything happening to her children by allowing them to go to sunday school. These are run by Catholic lay people, not priests or Bishops or the Pope. They are run by people like me. She is saying she will not risk her child being around people like me because I am Catholic and therefore more likely to be a child abuser than the gen pop.

Whenever there is a thread along the lines of 'man always in street when I pick up from school, should I call the police' then there is always an outcry along the lines of not all men are peadophiles/maybe he enjoys seeing the children playing etc. When there is a thread saying 'should I stop my dcs going to a Catholc church because I don't want to risk them being abused in childrens litergy' then I am going to defend myself. I am not going to defend the abuse or the cover up but I am going to defend me.

abride · 18/03/2010 11:53

The regulations are just as stringent as they are for teachers or anyone else who runs a sports club. Probably more so. In general Sunday schools are manned by laity--usually mothers or grandmothers. They are never alone with children.

Presumably you don't keep your children off school or nursery?

Onestonetogo · 18/03/2010 11:56

"The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" by Tim Leedom and Maria Murdy, publishes some very interesting researches and articles around child abuse in the hands of priests.

For example:

  • at least 4% of priests are paedos (that's a much higher proportion than the rest of the population, methinks!)
  • child molestation has been reported in 95% of catholic dioceses in the US.

The attitude of denial of some people is exactly what made it possible for paedos to abuse children!

Amidaiwish, my RE teacher (a priest) had a predilection for "accidentally" stroking girls' breasts. Luckily I was flat chested at 9/11, but several of my class mates were touched by him! I remember once telling him I wasn't sure I believed in god (I was a smart kid ), he called me to sit next to him, then squeezed my upper thigh very hard, eeeuuuwww! I wasn't traumatised by it, I just remember thinking "you sad old slimey bastard". He's dead now

amidaiwish · 18/03/2010 11:56

"So CRB says you have no record for being caught for abusing a child? It is my understanding that it doesn't actually identify people who do not have a conviction? "

correct.

that is why you check out the people you leave your children with.

but are you still saying you think your children are "more at risk" in a catholic church than anywhere else (school, nursery, sports club, party, friends house, holiday club)?
if you are then that is deeply offensive.

claw3 · 18/03/2010 11:57

CRB check is no guarantee, im sure there are lots who have just not been caught yet.

Be cautious by all means, but you cant live with this constant suspicion that anyone involved with your child will harm them, its not healthy!

Potentially anyone COULD harm your child, this doesnt mean that they WILL.