stopping my kids going to a Catholic Church

[jennyslinger]

I know religion is contentious so I'd like to say up front that I am a confirmed atheist and my DH is a confirmed catholic. This is not about the rights or wrongs of believing in god.

DH wants DS and DD (when she's 4yo) to go to our local Cathocis church to attend sunday school and get involved with other church activities.

I have read so much over the last few years about the child abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church. For this reason I have told DH and his family that the kids will not be going.

DH says I am fussing over nothing.

I asked DH he knew a nursery had covered up child abuse would he be happy with the kids going. He says this is not the same.

Am I being unreasonable?

everyone is having a go at daftpunk. Isn't this a bit hypocritical? Aren't daftpunk's views just the views of the official church hierarchy, who want an opt-out from the sex education bill and who are against gay adoption? We may not agree with daftpunk, but her views seem to be the official church position. Blaming everything on daftpunk and making her an outcast is missing the fact that she is not alone.

I don't know claig. You see, I thought that was the case (that daftpunk's views were those of the catholic heirarchy, and therefore in the rules of Catholicism, so to speak). But several people on here have been telling me that its ok to pick what bits to believe in, and they think homosexuals are lovely, really. Its all a bit odd really.

Oh, and its ok to be gay if you don't actually have sex, apparently. Because that's just god testing them I think - make them gay and then tell them they can't do anything about it! How twisted is that!

I agree glastocat. It is convenient to apportion all of the blame to the sinner daftpunk, tar and feather her, and avoid having to ask if this is the official position.

glastocat, why do you think that it is odd that not all Catholics are bigots? It is part of my religion that you cannot believe what you don't believe. The Catholic church has gone to the trouble of declaring that nobody should be made to hold a conviction that is not their own. I can't see how that it is odd to believe what you believe rather than what someone else believes. Do you expect non Catholics to hold believes that are not there own too? The core of the church is about God. Its not about homosexuality or sex education or abortion.

DP is always on these threads saying homosexuals shouldn't adopt etc. because "that is what we believe" but she never has a reasoned theological argument about why she believes that the official line it correct. The church has done loads of dumbass things over the years from both a humanitarian pov and a theological pov. No reasonable Catholic would or should blindly trust the hierarchy to get 100% of the things right 100% of the time. I think they often try to hard to get things right in an ideological way but it doesn't convert into real life so in order for something to be right and work in society it needs to be imperfect ideologically. They don?t move with the times/science as quickly as they should imo and have a tendency to think that tradition is more important than theology at times.

When you say ?pick which bits to believe in? it sound a bit like you think people only pick what is convenient or popular and they are being flippant about it. Obviously Catholics are influenced by social norms and what is socially acceptable and also by a desire for an easy life as much as non Catholics are. That doesn?t mean that they will say contraception/homosexuality/buying non fair-trade, or any of the other things where the official Vatican line is clearly anti, is ok without thinking about it from the pov of their faith rather than the pov of fitting into a secular society.

Sorry tapeworm, but I still don't get it. I think you are saying its ok NOT to agree with the Catholic churchs line on homosexuality/abortion/whatever. You see that is absolutely not what my husband was taught, or what my mother in law believes. If you are correct, well then why is there a problem allowing practising homosexuals to be members of the church? Or allowing people to use condoms? Surely to do that you are going against thwe Vatican line? And that is surely NOT ok by the Catholic heirarchy, whichever way you slice it.

so in conclusion...

The are unlikely to get abused though Catholicism is probably a very, very bad influence on my kids.

glastocat- I don't know much about what the church was able to get away with in Ireland. I did say that I know the church is a strong presence there, and was able to get away with a lot. If the OP is in Ireland, then sure, fine, they're all paedos there. Is that what you want to hear?

I attended an extremely liberal Catholic church on Capitol Hill, in Washington DC (so, obviously, not Ireland) throughout the majority of my childhood. I was an altar girl (didn't even know it wasn't allowed elsewhere), was in the choir, and in various youth groups. I enjoyed myself, and emerged unscathed. The majority of inappropriate behaviour I experienced was from (non-Catholic, because this seems to be the Issue) older siblings of friends, at their houses.

You are striding against the church as if every member and every priest is waiting in the wings to grab your child, and it simply isn't true. I'm not going to stay and argue religion with you, but I felt the need to stand up for the few of us Catholics who aren't assaulting children daily.

Since I see you're on about homosexuality, yes, that's just one of man problems I have with the decisions from the Vatican. I was raised in a house full of gay men, and most of them died of AIDS over the years. My mother became Episcopalian as a result (I believe the US equivalent of CofE?) as the Vatican was saying people who die of AIDS deserve it, because it was the result of sin, or whatever asinine thing. She didn't move me because I was still in school and there was no way I was going to public school in DC. But that's a tale for another day. I am in no way anti-homosexual, the majority of my friends back home are gay, and indeed, a few of them are Catholic. Perhaps Catholics just aren't as black and white as you've been led to believe by your DH and his family.

Hello OP, what an interesting thread, even if you are not genuine.

Thinking pragmatically: if you start a fight about this, it will burn through your family for many years. It will be a red-hot issue for your children - as teenagers and young people, they will have strong views about religion - they might, for instance, choose to rebel against you by becoming fervent Catholics, embracing all those aspects of the church that you dislike. The fights will cause pain to everyone in the family.

Rather than expressing your disgust to your DH about the very worst aspects of Catholicism (the cover-up) can't you tell him it's up to him but you'll not be taking them yourself - it's his job. Hopefully he'll get bored. Hopefully the kids will find it dull - rather than forbidden and eccentric. Hopefully there'll be some other Sunday morning activity they come to prefer. The best weapon is to make sure all three of them find it dull as ditchwater and stop going sooner rather than later. If the DCs later get some comfort from going through Catholic cermonies at, for intance, their father's funeral, well comfort is not something to be sneezed at is it? And if they join the church then become disillusioned, you'll be there to cushion the blow because you'll always have told them - not stridently but as a simple fact - that you yourself don't think what the priest is telling them is true.

My DH went through a period of threatening to circumcise the DSs. Ignoring it till he forgot about it/couldn't work out where to find a rabbi worked a treat. Expressing incredulity that his faith dictates the forcible removal of lands from other people because God says that's ok - well - that wouldn't really have been a good move would it?

I think if you came from a family torn by religious divides, as I do, you would think twice before declaring war like this.

Your Mil probably got most of her religious education pre 2nd Vatican Council/ Humanea Vitea/ Decloration of Religious Freedom and may belong to a parish where an elderly priet scurrys in once a week, does mass and scurrys off home again. It is easy for people, especially older cradle Catholics to not give their faith/religion a second thought outside 60 mins on a Sunday morning.

lol meant to say enticing not eccentric!

jennyslinger, it seems that you are very bitter against Catholicism on a number of levels. It is clearly not for you. Is this clouding what's in the best interest of your children, their father and his entire side of the family? Maybe you should compromise and let them become members of this large community for the sake of your husband and his side of the family. If they grow up to think like you, then they can always reject it later. If it was such a very very bad influence, I doubt that a billion people would be members.

YANBU

am not worried about child abuse more the indoctrination that being "involved" with the church entails

... anyone watching the news - pope has for the first time apologised for the abuse....

The question of whether the practice of celibacy has contributed to the systematic abuse within the Catholic church has been raised.

it's cannon law not doctorine, i dont think that jesus said the apostles couldn't marry, i mean in that day and age it would have almost been unthinkable

and i don't think priests marrying and paedophiles are the same issue, its about paedos being in a position of trust, if you have a thing for little boys being married isn't going to help

"..if its all down to free will and conscience, is it ok took to be a practising homosexual, have an abortion, or be a priest? No, thought not."

-- Well actually, yes of course it is. All of what you mentioned is legal (in the UK anyway) You are free to do what you want and believe what you want, even in Ireland, (with the exception of abortion, I know). Who is going to stop you? How will you be stopped? Of course your own actions are always a matter of your own individual conscience, whether you're a Catholic or not. Everybody is guided in everything they choose to do by their own beliefs or value system. There is no ton of bricks hovering over the head of a Catholic, waiting to drop on you if you put a foot 'wrong'. If you decide that you have done something that doesn't square with your conscience, the Catholic Church offers the sacrament of reconciliation and you are free to avail of that too.

By the sound of your MIL, she was raised in the very old style 'learn it all off and don't ask questions' type of Catholicism in Ireland. People like her are very hard to deal with, I'll grant you that much. They are very different from younger Catholics.

"The Catholic church took children off their parents for the most spurious of reasons ( illegitimacy for example), threw them in children's homes ( often to work like slaves, as per the Goldenbridge rosary bead factory), starved them, beat them, and raped them. This went on for decades. And then when it started to come out, the Catholic heirarchy did their damnedest to cover up the whole thing. Oh, and they went running to the Irish government and got them to agree to pay most of the reparations. So it wasn't just a case of a few abusers going on to abuse, not by a long chalk."

The 'care' of children who were removed from their parents (yes, for really, really terrible reasons) was in most cases contracted out to the Catholic Church in Ireland by the Irish Government industrial schools and orphanages were farmed out to the church by the state. Hence the state's role in reparations. I personally do not believe the church was challenged enough or made to pay enough initially, but the Murphy Report was a correct move in the direction of holding the church more directly accountable for the horrors that were visited upon defenceless children for so long. I think Cardinal Brady should have resigned long ago and I believe that saying he was following orders when he colluded in the silencing of two children () smacks of the Nuremberg trial.

DP, nowhere in any of the Catholic Church's writings on the subject is homosexuality described as a 'lifestyle choice'.

I agree with Custardo regarding paedophilia probably not being linked to celibacy. It's more a question of the personality types and psychological profiles considered acceptable for admission to the seminary and passed through as priests.

I agree with Custardo, too. If you're sexually attracted to boys aged 12-16 (a majority the of abused (by Catholic priests) children have fallen into this age group), getting married to a woman isn't going to stop you feeling like that.

The man who sexually abused my cousins was married with four children of his own.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/19/religion-catholicism-celibacy-ireland

I am still pondering celibacy and the abuse -
imo this viewpoint has validity in terms of the institutional cover up?

Look, of course no-one can stop anyone being a practising homosexual, or using contraception, but you can't deny that the Catholic church says that those things are wrong. And yes, my MIL is an old fashioned Catholic, but I also know plenty of young Catholics, I'm surrounded by them!I have had this conversation many times, and while many younger Catholics pick and choose what bits they go along with ( I only know a few that eschew 'artificial'contraception), they are quite clear that it is not something that they would tell their priest! Also, disapproving of homosexuality (for example) is not merely the preserve of the older generation - my sister in law is 27, when I told her that two of my gay friends had had a baby she told me that it was disgusting! So, a bit like dp then!

And for all those putting words in my mouth, I have never said that I think all catholics are abusers, because that is obviously bollocks. I am married into a catholic family, while I may think most of them are bonkers, or at least a bit bewildered, I certainly do not think they are abusers themselves. But, as I have said above, I do think that by remaining members of the church, they are complicit in supporting a corrupt organisation. If Jesus existed, I can't imagine him covering up and paying off victims of child rape, I suspect he would wash his hands of the entire organisation.

Anyway, we might as well agree to disagree, we're all going round in circles, and I can't see anyone changing their mind on this.

Glastocat I think I can see where you are coming from - yes if by not acting and just remaining part of the Catholic church and not taking a stand - then are you somehow compromising and somehow allowing a cover up to continue ? Although it is so difficult as culturally and politically the Catholic church is embedded in so many lives.

Hi Oliviacrumble, irish also, have a four year old dd starting school next year, dp is so agains the catholic church and appalled at all the sexual abuse scandals emerging (we are both catholics but not practising ) that he dis communicated himself from it a few months ago. We have no choice but only to send our dd to a catholic school, there is one church of ireland but it is in another town ... There will be a problem when it is communion time, he will not allow it ....

Yes pinkfizzle, that is what I am saying. Just because it is difficult to walk away from the church because of cultural or political reasons, doesn't mean that people shouldn't do it. As christians often ask, what would Jesus do?

MCDL, I sympathise about the schools as I am in the same boat, but I think your husband is right about rejecting communion. At least you are married to a man of principles, I know I am proud of my husband for discommunicating himself from the church.

Obviously, when you got together and started having children, how to bring them up would have been discussed. What were your intentions originally? Did you get married in a Catholic Church? If not, how does this sit with your DH?
Have you baptised your children? If so, that must have been hard for you. If not, that must be hard for DH, especially as he wants them to be a part of the church now.
Please, please do not worry about abuse in the present-day church. Obviously, any abuse of children is horrific, but you should find that there is safe-guarding in place in your parish and of course school in the present-day church. (There will be a child protection officer in your local church.)
I understand that you and your DH have differences of opinions over the upbringing of your children (which I respect) but it sounds to me like it is something you have major issues over, and you are using child abuse as your deal-breaker (which of course it would be for anyone, but that it has happened previously in this huge organisation does not mean that it will occur again (let's all hope not, whatever our beliefs).
Good luck with your discussions with your DH.