to think that sexual exploration between an (10 yr old) brother and (5 year old) sister is inappropriate?

[onemissing]

Hi all

My 5 year old daughter had a (girl)friend to stay last night and they shared a bed on the floor. I overheard them chatting and her (also 5 yr old) friend suggested my daughter took her pyjama bottoms off and that they rub themselves together.

She went on to say that she does it with her brother (who is 10) and that it makes your tummy tingle and is "like kissing a handsome boy". She said "If you don't want to, just tell me", to which my daughter said "I don't want to, do it with your brother' (!).

I didn't say or do anything, because I was satisfied that my daughter had been clear about her boundaries, and this had been respected. However,I do feel concerned about what's going on with this little girl and her brother, particularly as there is a 5 year age gap.

The brother has been involved in a couple of other incidences which I know about of being overly sexual, once with a much younger girl. Him and his sister share a bedroom.

He is a very sweet and sensitive boy, but quite anxious and troubled, and I wonder how all this fits in with that.

I feel I'm going to have to talk to their mum (a good friend) about what was said, but she can be quite heavy handed with her kids and I'm a bit worried about how sensitively (or otherwise) she'd deal with it.

What to do?

I would say butt out, they are both children and in all likelihood it's harmless

YANBUm it is innapropriate but I have no idea what you should say to the mum. I think you have to say something though.

Have a talk with their mum like you said. It does sound slightly strange. Could it be that the boy is being abused? Where would he have learned this from? I don't want to jump to conclusions though but what you say about him being anxious and troubled sounds worrying.

When I was about 10 I had a (female) friend whose house I used to go to. She had 2 brothers, 1 older and 1 younger. She once said to me "look watch this" and pulled down her pants and got on top of her younger brother and made 'sex motions' (I think he was about 3/4 at the time). I was shocked and had no idea why she was doing this or what she was really doing tbh. Then we were in the tent in the garden with her older brother and they were hugging and rolling around together and laying in each others arms like BF and GF. Another time we were in his room and he was getting on top of his sister who would be giggling. I think he was 1 or 2 years older than us. I never said anything to anyone but I always thought it was really really odd. I know there was another 'incident' but I cannot remember what it was now.

I don't really consider it 'normal' behaviour though.

It would make me very uncomfortable. I think I'd ask the HV about the situation but not name names. See what she suggests.

I have a 10 yr old DS and a 5 yr old DD. I would not be happy with this at all. Agree with talking to SS and getting their advice.

I have a 10 yr old DS and a 5 yr old DD. I would not be happy with this at all. Agree with talking to SS and getting their advice.

I would not "butt out" tbh. What if there was something very wrong and you did nothing? Sometimes people don't speak out when they should, as a few cases in the media recently suggest. But with things like this, it is very difficult.

Brahms?

This is a pre-pubescent boy engaging in sexualised play with a 5 year old girl. He has been involved in other incidents of sexualised behaviour. These children share a room. What do you think is likely to happen when this boy gets a bit bigger? This sort of play is not appropriate between children with such a large age gap - there is a clear element of power and grooming displayed by the older boy.

You may think I'm overreacting but I'm a social work professional and I see how these situations end up.

OP, I think you need to speak to social services. It's quite possible that someone has sexually abused this boy and you have no idea who that might be.

WHat the girl describes IMO goes beyond normal sexual curiosity in children.
It certainly would ring alarm bells for me.
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To me it just sounded like the sort of sex-playing children do before they understand what sex really is. Fully prepared to be told I'm wrong though.

Brahms - a 10 year old boy does understand what sex is about, trust me! They may not appreciate the finer details.

You don't have children, so I would be wary of making such sweeping generalisations.

OP - I'd definitely have a word with the girl's mother, if you feel that you can. But how do you know about the other incidents?

Depending on the severity of these, I think I would talk to your HV and ask her advice.

having read the rest of these replies, I think you should contact SS, don't go through the school, it's not their job to pass on hear say, which is what this would be - it would be much more credible coming straight from you to SS.

If school or anyone else has been concerned then they will pass their concerns straight to SS.

Due to the age gap between the 2 children, this is not normal behaviour, one child is most definatly in control of the situation and is of an age where he probably knows what he is doing is questionable, if not wrong. The little girl needs to know that this is not appropriate and that she can say no.

you could also phone the NSPCC for advice

Please don't just ignore it

I would NOT talk to the parents AT ALL.

Ring SS or NSPCC for advice.

I was kind of hoping you'd all tell me it was nothing to worry about, even though my gut feeling was that it was not right.

The kids' mother is one of my oldest and closest friends, and for this reason I couldn't really countenance going to social services without at least broaching it with her first.

Our children aren't at the same school, but thanks for the suggestion, Pixie.

We have talked at length about his issues around this in the past, and he saw a child psychologist for a while, so it's not as though she is blind to what is going on, but I very much doubt if she knows that it's been going on with his sister.

Do you think that she could perhaps contact her GP and arrange to get him referred to someone again?

good idea betsyboop

dont just go to the mother if you think it may be dealt with badly, she wont thank you for speaking to someone official if she find s out/guesses it was you but honestly, nothing is more important here than the welfare of those children, nothing.

I don't like the disparity between their ages and levels of understanding at all - a year or two either way and would think nothing of it

Early sexualised behaviour, previous history, "heavy handed" (your words) mother....

Major alarm bells. Talk to the HV.

It's not that I don't want to follow your advice, LeninGrad, I'm just explaining why I would find going to SS without discussing it with her first, very difficult, particularly as it's something she's always been very open with me about.

I'm very appreciative for all the advice given, thank you.

I think I will call the NSPCC first and see what advice they give.

The whole situation's making me feel very and worried for those kids.

You have already said you are worried about how your friend would handle it. I would contact the NSPCC or Social Services.

The age gap is a big part of what makes it so wrong, the lement of power and control the boy has and the fact this is not the first time something untoward has happened involving this boy.

If he did it to your daughter would you think it was harmless? I know I wouldn't.