Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that sexual exploration between an (10 yr old) brother and (5 year old) sister is inappropriate?

136 replies

onemissing · 14/03/2010 21:16

Hi all

My 5 year old daughter had a (girl)friend to stay last night and they shared a bed on the floor. I overheard them chatting and her (also 5 yr old) friend suggested my daughter took her pyjama bottoms off and that they rub themselves together.

She went on to say that she does it with her brother (who is 10) and that it makes your tummy tingle and is "like kissing a handsome boy". She said "If you don't want to, just tell me", to which my daughter said "I don't want to, do it with your brother' (!).

I didn't say or do anything, because I was satisfied that my daughter had been clear about her boundaries, and this had been respected. However,I do feel concerned about what's going on with this little girl and her brother, particularly as there is a 5 year age gap.

The brother has been involved in a couple of other incidences which I know about of being overly sexual, once with a much younger girl. Him and his sister share a bedroom.

He is a very sweet and sensitive boy, but quite anxious and troubled, and I wonder how all this fits in with that.

I feel I'm going to have to talk to their mum (a good friend) about what was said, but she can be quite heavy handed with her kids and I'm a bit worried about how sensitively (or otherwise) she'd deal with it.

What to do?

OP posts:
wannaBe · 15/03/2010 10:20

something about this struck me:

Op said that the little girl had said ""If
you don't want to, just tell me""

Sexual abuse is all about control. But this five year old seems to understand that there is the option to say no and that that should be respected. If she was being abused by her brother, would the element of saying no, and the respect for that choice be there?

I certainly don't think it's appropriate fwiw.

damnedchilblains · 15/03/2010 10:26

"Where would he have learned this from"

how about the sex education video at school? He is 10 I'm guessing he would have had it and judging by the clip we saw the other day it is a fair enough bet. Maybe an inappropriate film (not necessarily porn), maybe he saw his parents? The problem isn't so much that he knows about sexual behaviour but that he is acting it out with his sister. Btw whether his sister was 5 or 8 I still believe it to be inappropriate.

I'm sorry onemissing but it does seem like it could be some sort of abuse. Think about what his family set up is like. Is his father still at home, is it a new step-father, are there men in his life where abuse could occur (i know it's not just men who abuse). I just ask because maybe his mother isn't part of it. I know if a friend told me her concerns I would be very grateful and determined to get to the bottom of it. (I know some other mothers are not like that) So you are in a very difficult position.

I appreciate you don't want to destroy your friendship, but if she is such a good friend you will know how to handle it, and you will be able to convince her that you have her and her dc's best interest at heart.

My advice would be either report it and don't tell her. Just be there for her when she needs you. Or tell her and then immediately report it. If you report it and then tell her she will definitely be upset that you didn't go to her first. I think the advice you have been given above is great by the way, and maybe the best thing you need to do is to call a helpline to get expert advice.

DandyLioness · 15/03/2010 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

carrieboo75 · 15/03/2010 11:18

Lenin - I learn't the hard way, so I agree MN mums have taught me always use the offical route. They are impartial and trained and that counts for a lot.

Dandy - I too thought that sentence was cause for concern. It is a very grown up thing to say, not the average kiddy sentence.

Onemissing - Are you still watching this? Let us know how you are doing.

OtterInaSkoda · 15/03/2010 11:19

In all seriousness I don't think a 10yo would need to inspired (for want of a better word) by watching a sex ed film, nor that he has necessarily been sexually abused himself. He needs to know however that this behaviour is not OK, as does the dd.

I would be talking to social services I think, for advice at least. Something doesn't quite sit right, iykwim.

alypaly · 15/03/2010 11:25

You should be worried and i would go to the mother....my brother sexually assaulted me from 8 to 12 years old( he was 16/17 but abuse starts at any age) and my mother was completely unaware. This boy is 10 and in this day and age ,HE knows its wrong. I f she is getting so called'tingly' feelings it is SO SO wrong and it should be stopped right now. Believe me...I am a victim.

mloo · 15/03/2010 11:29

I was reported to NSPCC for something once and though I only had one visit from SS in connection, the experience totally undermined my confidence as a parent for years.

So my gut feeling would be to talk to the parent herself, but if you're terribly unsure about that I would speak direct to the boy himself. A 10yo boy should very well know better (mine would), but he might struggle to get it if he's quite immature.

I have sons and a DD and they definitely want to sexually explore with each other I constantly tell them that it's not allowed with relatives but their innocence is exactly what makes them struggle to understand why.

AnyFucker · 15/03/2010 13:50

good lord, no...whatever else you do, do not talk to the boy himself...

gingernutlover · 15/03/2010 14:04

one missing

what have you done? Please phone HV/SS/NSPCC

both these children need help and nothing is more important than ensuring they get that.

I know you say the mother has been open with you and is a very close friend, but it sounds like whatever was put in place has not worked has it?

I'm not saying phone SS and give them her name address etc straight away, although I would. But please please speak to someone official in an anonymous way, telll them everything including what has happened in the past and listen to their advice. They are professionals and you are very close to this situation and therefore it is hard to make an objective decision

gingernutlover · 15/03/2010 14:05

and I agree, dont speak direct to the child, that could land YOU in serious trouble.

pigsinmud · 15/03/2010 14:21

Oh god I feel sick.
alypaly I know how you feel.
Do as gingernut says.
I don't know how old I was exactly, but I know it stopped when I was about 10 and my brother was about 14.

I would tell my best friend about it sometimes.

lovechoc · 15/03/2010 14:22

I echo everyone else, go down the official route - not the parent. Someone objective needs to step in and look at the family dynamics here - to find out what exactly is going on in the household, and the relationship between the 5yo and 10yo.

To me it doesn't seem innocent, so I'd be getting in touch with a social worker and explaining what your daughter told you recently. Please do not leave this, take action now.

lovechoc · 15/03/2010 14:25

and IMHO speaking directly to a child is not the best way to deal with this situation. Best left to the authorities.

alypaly · 15/03/2010 14:27

its the most horrible thig isnt it shilke....its like a double betrayal isnt it.The pain never goes away.....ever.

There was a young girl that lived next door but one to me and she was about seven . It appauled me as to her little sexual innuendos and sexy dancing and it worried me that she was seeing things on the tv or on porn on the internet as her way of dancing was not that of a seven year old. It was definitely 'dirty dancing'. I reported it to SS and she was a victim of sexual abuse. Please act on this quickly,but do not approach the boy. That is not up to you.

onadietcokebreak · 15/03/2010 14:34

Please dont be the one who fails this child....you have the key to potentially resolving what ever is going on ny alerting the authorities.

Ring NSPCC/ Social services and dont speak to parents.

MathsMadMummy · 15/03/2010 14:53

Just wanted to echo that you must ring SS or NSPCC. I'm sure they'll understand what an awkward situation you're in, it's what the helplines are there for!

DH and I were both abused and if we ever discovered that someone had suspicions but didn't report them, that'd be a pretty major betrayal. That kind of thing hurts as much as the actual abuse TBH.

mampam · 15/03/2010 17:20

OP do not ignore this.

I am a Homestart Volunteer and as part of our training we were given a talk on Child Protection from one of the country's top professionals in this field.

After reading your post, one of the things that we were taught has jumped out at me. Child Protection man told us that sexual exploration between children is normal to a certain extent but NOT when there is an age gap of 4 years or more between the children.

Obviously as a volunteer, if I heard a comment such as the one you heard I would tell my superiors and it would be taken out of my hands. I think your best port of call would be the NSPCC who will know exactly what to do in this kind of situation.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

MitsubishiWarrioress · 15/03/2010 17:37

Also would say you need to do something about it.

It happens.
The lad needs help, and if nothing is done the girl will have long term issues.

4 yrs is too much. At 10 my DS knew about 'bits' being private and I think the disparity between the ages as children is big.

It may lead to him 'normalising' his own behaviour and sadly continuing with it. He is not a weirdo. But definitely needs intervention.

Please, please, please, OP, if you are still reading this, do something. The little girl will get lost and hurt, because it doesn't 'stop'. And in the long term she may wind up with god knows what issues.

MrsC2010 · 15/03/2010 19:47

I think regardless of the question of learned behaviour and possible abuse of him, he is old enough to know that his sister should not be a sexual object to him.

UpToMyTitsOf · 15/03/2010 20:29

...and even if the girl doesn't know it is inapropiate don't forget that whatever is happening now will hit her HARD as soon as she is old enough to understand what is happening. And the sequels of that would last way into adulthood.

And don't tell the parents, they won't believe you and you can land the girl in serious trouble.

missmoopy · 15/03/2010 20:40

It is not normal. He is 10, and that is old enough to have an understanding of sex and sexuality. It is an early warning sign and you need to do something about it. Now.

missmoopy · 15/03/2010 20:42

Oh, and I am a social worker and have also worked with sex offenders, so I do have some knowledge to back up previous post. Please phone social services or NSPCC child protection helpline.

pigletmania · 15/03/2010 21:13

I agree with the majority here, I would go to SS or seek advice from NSPCC, this does not sound like normal exploration to me, both the boy and the girl need help. The boy might not have necessarily be abused for this behaviour, he might have watched films or seen sex ed videos or from the playground but might have underlying psychological problems, thus cannot deal with this information in an appropriate way so he acts them out.

Missmoopy you said that at 10 the boy is old enough to have an understanding of sex and sexuality, well, not all children, I led a sheltered life and would not have had a clue at 10 about sex or sexuality. I was about 12 and did not know what womanly parts we had , it was only when the older girls told me that i realised and we had a talk about periods.

missmoopy · 15/03/2010 21:38

Piglet, that is true but I think at 10 a child understands that sexual contact with a 5 year old is wrong.

I think no matter how sheltered your life was, you would have known this was wrong, even if you didn't necessarily kknow why.

He is probably a confused little boy.

DandyLioness · 15/03/2010 21:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn