Bit miffed why my dd 2.11 is being labled with having SN when i know full well that she is not (long post sorry)

[pigletmania]

I took my dd 2.11 to pre school today, I asked to have a little chat with the manager about how my dd is getting on as i have had no feedback from them, and last time she was there she refused to have her nappy changed and bit and scratched staff (she does not seem to like small dark spaces such as toilets), dd is not violent or aggressive so this was totally out of character. The manager said that if dd was staying on after 3 she would be refered to SENCO as they were concerned that she was not following a routine, and not sitting still at story time or doing as she was asked, wtf, show me a young child that does. Any young child would rather play with the colourful toys or paints on display than sit listening to a story. DD will be going to the nursery attached to the local primary when she turns 3 in March.

DD is very babyish for her age, and her speech is not as fluent as it could be and she is not yet potty trained, but the HV and others have said that it will come when she is ready. She is only at pre school for 4 hours a week, so they do not know how she is really like, at home she is different. DD can say all her alphabet, recognise numbers one to 10, basic colours and shapes and knows her nursery rhymes, and can speak if she wants to. DD is very stubbon and stong minded and not a performer, will do it when she wants in her own time. I explained this to the manager and she was surprised as dd is not like that in pre school. Why are they so quick to lable a child espcially one so young? The manager said also that they have an Early years curriculum, and they have to tick off certain criteria, my goodness not all children are the same and will be at the same stage.

I have studied psychology/child psych to Masteres level so know that each child is different and develops in different ways, they are not robots all developing at the same time, it is a little early imo to make a special needs assumption, i am just a bit upset and sad about this as i know that dd is a late developer like i was and does not have SN. Fair enough once she reaches school age than yes, but at the moment she is still developing and learning, and may catch up soon enough especially once she starts nursery school full time. As the HV has told me a month is an awful long time for a child, so just give it time not jump to conclusions.

MillyR, the percentage was 33% for summer born children, in comparison to 19% for Autumn born children who obtained the lowest scores.

However Summer born children with learning difficulties do not perform less well on age standard tests than Autumn born children with learning difficulties.

There is no denying that children who are born in summer are at a disadvantage and any child at a disadvantage needs extra help, which is why they have been 'labelled' as having special education needs and receive extra help.

Just to add, with summer children, they 'may' be at a disadvantage. I have had the opposite experience with dd - I am eternally grateful that she scraped into the school year she is in (August birthday) - as it is she is SO far ahead of her class in everything (she's Y2 atm). If she had been in Y1 I think we would have had real problems with her behaviour-wise.

Yes sorry Lily i stand corrected, you are quite right, i should have said 'may'.

Well the nursery said they would not be doing anything as dd is going soon, and that they would write a report to send on. I will chill and see what they new setting say. I am a bit annoyed as i feel it is too soon to say that dd has SEN, and a lot of expectation is placed upon young children, and if they do not fit into a certain mould they are classed as SEN which may or not be the case. I do have a problem with government attainment targets, and ticking boxes which i see this as. I will reserve judgement until she starts school nursery and see what they say, I will be open to help and support for dd if it is found she does need extra help. Just my view really as i know that children do differ and yes dd may or may not have SEN, and if she does we will do all that we can to help her.

Piglet, was your DD really "dragged to the toilet aganist [her] will" by the pre-school staff?

CBTS, but my child was mis-diagnosed as a result of being referred to the SENCO. So it is not prejudice, it is my real life experience.

It is relevant to the OP for me to point out there are situations where children are referred and it ends badly and creates huge problems for the child and family.

And you go on to say: "She is probably a late developer with the right amout of input will probably obtain these goals"

But that's what SN is at a pre-school age, isn't it? A little bit of extra effort needs to be made by the staff . . . tis no big thing.

I also don't believe that a Summer born child does not always need extra help. The staff need to accept that the Summer born child has not reached a particular milestone because they are a year younger than some of the other children, and rather than 'help' them to reach it they should accept that they will reach it later.

If babies are in childcare, we do not 'help' the August born child walks at 6 months, just because a September born 17 month old is walking and both children will be in the same school year.

I'm really sorry but 3 years old is not too soon for things to be spotted / worked on / even diagnosed. You have said your DD is 2 years 11 months: so basically much closer to 3 than to 2. Very good age for getting help if it turns out she needs it. Which it's not clear at all, yet, if she does.

pigletmania - just wanted to say "hi". I was on your thread about the nappy-changing.

It's good that she's moving on to somewhere you feel confident with soon. If there is a problem (and nothing in your OP suggests there is), then at least she will be in an environment and with people you trust. I suspect you've had enough of the one she's at.

Any move forward on the nappy-changing - did you make any suggestions and how did they respond ?

Sorry if you've covered this - not much time but wanted to post.

i second that swc my ds was watched from 2 dx at 3 with HFA is very bright knows all letters colours shapes , can do maths for 7 yr old his nearly 5 he can read his a bright button

again its the assumption of being labelled when there is no labelling going on they are offering further help which can be speech therapy helping to settle etc observing no labelling just doing there job which can only benefit your dd to catch up with peers unless a pediatrician is mentioned and your going through diagnosing process there is no label only help senco is used also for children who are not English it offers further support to settle and offers speech therapy and support that other children cannot access other wise it doesnt mean anything is wrong it just means extra help to settle

Piglet, a referral to SENCO is not saying that your dd has SEN, just that they need to keep an eye on her just in case she develops a learning disability in future.

Children are not classed as having SEN, until any (if any) special needs have been identified.

Your dd will not automatically receive a SEN 'label' just by being referred to SENCO.

Teachers and teaching staff do not have training in special needs and so refer to SENCO to either rule out or confirm.

if then your dd does continue to stay behind peers she is already having the help which can only be a benefit then you would go from there through to pediatrician first before a label is given dont take it personally i was happy for my son to have the extra help to settle was never worried the senco was involved he also was late out of nappies was very wilful wanting to do his own thing etc

he was in the right place as he just stayed right behind his peers speech remained very behind and this is where we were then sent for further help

she isnt being classed as special needs she is just being sent to someone who can help with additional needs which can be a number of things lack of communication etc

again i was glad as we had all help in place for when he started school and i was never embarrassed or ashamed to have him have the extra help i never thought anything of it but that either way he would benefit form the extra help

Again, Claw, that is not true. Perhaps that is what should happen but in reality staff can 'decide' a child has a specific SEN and then start to behave as if that child has that SEN on the grounds that it takes so long to get a diagnosis that they had better start now, but the staff can be wrong.

MillyR, many children receive help and support without a diagnosis based on the difficulties they are experiencing. That is common practise.

BTW piglet - if it's me you were referring to earlier, I'm not a child pychologist. I used to be a clinical psychologist, working with elderly people, but I now do a few hours as a play assistant. So not expert on SN or anything.

Also MillyR, not sure what you mean by 'staff then start to 'behave' as if that child has a SEN'?

I think that the staff should have spoken to you about your dd's progress without you having to ask first.

IME (2 boys with ASD) everyone is very careful not to make a diagnosis of what the cause of the difficulties could be. The dx'ing is left to the Paed to decide.

Agree with smallwhitecat, my son (2.9, speech delay, not potty-trained, one episode of aggression, can't sit still) had ASD diagnosed two weeks ago. The concern was raised by his pre-school but the speedy dx was down to me taking it on board and doing lots of research.

He is also clever and his disability certainly doesn't mean that he will not amount to much in later life.

"He is also clever and his disability certainly doesn't mean that he will not amount to much in later life."

well said

My DS2 is not clever. He may not get a job but that does not mean he does not amount to much. he is worth a great deal more to the community, to his family and to his peers, than many.

The earlier children are dx the better. It means that the help can be put in place as soon as possible. In my soons case he went to an early intervention centre and although he was discharged after four one to one sessions and three group sessions it would have been and remained in aplace as he needed it.

Children can receive extra help in school as part of differential learning - that has happened to DD; she has had extra help in a group as part of the literacy strategy. Nobody is saying she has an SEN. So I do understand that children are helped all the time without requiring a diagnosis. It is a similar situation to children who do not speak English as a first language - that is not an SEN but they may require extra help.

What happened with DS was totally different. For two years (reception and year one) the school had him on an IEP on the grounds that they believed he had autism. They treated him as if he were autistic. If he had been autistic the behaviour of the staff would still have been wrong because they were totally ignorant about autism. For example, during carpet time, the TA would hold my child's face between her hands because he was autistic and they said you had to hold autistic children's faces in group settings or they would not learn to make eye contact.

DS got worse and worse, so they were then going to apply to have him statemented so that he would have one to one support for the rest of Primary school because otherwise he would fail his SATs. I moved him to a different Primary school. The old school told the new school he had autism. The new school decided he did not. He had no social or academic problems at the new school and left with very high SATs results without any additional support, happy and with plenty of friends.

I am not undermining anybody's claims to have had a nightmare getting recognition of their child's needs. I am not saying there is anything wrong with having autism or any other SEN. But some schools get it wrong. Some professionals get it wrong in any profession. I have known parents who have had to pay for academics who specialise in Autism to come and argue to our LEA that their child does NOT have autism.

Had I come on MN when my child was 4, and said my child's behaviour is xyz, I think it is caused by poor school environment and bullying, not autism. I would have been told by the overwhelming majority of posters that my child had an SEN and I was in denial. I might have listened to them - it took a lot of strength to go against the teachers and move my child.

I don't know if the OP's child has an SEN. I know she is right to be wary of a child care worker raising it, because sometimes it goes wrong.

But look at that case in Romania in the weekend press, perfectly normal boy who was a bit slow and put in an institution for life until rescued by an American. Labels can work against as well as for you and parents and others can then treat the child as if it had a problem it didn't.

On the other hand if there are real difficulties they are worth spotting earlier. My oldest who is 25 now and in a pretty good City career, she would not concentrate on anything at 2 and a half - I remember her interview for Montessori nursery and the school said she was just very interested in the world which was great and she was and then at 4 she got into Haberdashers school a year young. All my children had trouble being potty trained and I was wetting the bed until I was 7 or 8 I think. It's genetic on both sides of the family although they were all out nappies before nursery school at 3.

It's the official record Big Brother thing which can be damning

Difficult issues though because parents never want to think their children have a problem so have a natural instinct to play it down when it might be very clear to any outsider.