Bit miffed why my dd 2.11 is being labled with having SN when i know full well that she is not (long post sorry)

[pigletmania]

I took my dd 2.11 to pre school today, I asked to have a little chat with the manager about how my dd is getting on as i have had no feedback from them, and last time she was there she refused to have her nappy changed and bit and scratched staff (she does not seem to like small dark spaces such as toilets), dd is not violent or aggressive so this was totally out of character. The manager said that if dd was staying on after 3 she would be refered to SENCO as they were concerned that she was not following a routine, and not sitting still at story time or doing as she was asked, wtf, show me a young child that does. Any young child would rather play with the colourful toys or paints on display than sit listening to a story. DD will be going to the nursery attached to the local primary when she turns 3 in March.

DD is very babyish for her age, and her speech is not as fluent as it could be and she is not yet potty trained, but the HV and others have said that it will come when she is ready. She is only at pre school for 4 hours a week, so they do not know how she is really like, at home she is different. DD can say all her alphabet, recognise numbers one to 10, basic colours and shapes and knows her nursery rhymes, and can speak if she wants to. DD is very stubbon and stong minded and not a performer, will do it when she wants in her own time. I explained this to the manager and she was surprised as dd is not like that in pre school. Why are they so quick to lable a child espcially one so young? The manager said also that they have an Early years curriculum, and they have to tick off certain criteria, my goodness not all children are the same and will be at the same stage.

I have studied psychology/child psych to Masteres level so know that each child is different and develops in different ways, they are not robots all developing at the same time, it is a little early imo to make a special needs assumption, i am just a bit upset and sad about this as i know that dd is a late developer like i was and does not have SN. Fair enough once she reaches school age than yes, but at the moment she is still developing and learning, and may catch up soon enough especially once she starts nursery school full time. As the HV has told me a month is an awful long time for a child, so just give it time not jump to conclusions.

It does sound possible to me that you're reading an awful lot into what they've said. Your OP states that they said they would refer to SENCO due to certain issues eg not sitting still, not keeping routine.....and now you're at "they want little robots" etc!

Having been through years now with DS of fighthing to get him any help and fighting to get his special needs recognised, I would always be happy to hear that a setting was referring to SENCO. It's entirely appropriate that they should if they have concerns. It's not an insult, it's a good thing. It's them doing their job right

Remember that no teacher or SENCO or nursery worker can ever diagnose anything. This is not starting a juggernaut of intervention that will diagnose your daughter with something she hasn't got. SENCO referrals are about children getting extra help if they need it to do their best in the setting they're in. No, they don't know her like you do but equally you're not there in the setting and can't help her - they can.

You should welcome this imo.

Hi Pigletmania, really sorry to hear you're having all this worry

But just wanted to say that IMO 4 hours a week (am I right? did you say 4 hours a week rather than 4 hours a day?) is far too little for a toddler to settle at nursery. It's not surprising, in a way, that she might be struggling, because she can't have settled with just 4 hours a week. So I feel it's good that she's moving on to a different nursery soon & will be doing more hours, that'll definitely help her to achieve a bit more of a structure & settle better in that environment. 4 hours a week is just dipping your toe in the water for a second & then right out again, no chance to learn to swim that way ifswIm.

Having said that, I feel that the things the staff are picking on could (in some cases) be cause for concern so they're not wrong per se in spelling them out. Checking out certain developmental milestones is not the same as 'labelling' a child, even if a child has a referral that's not something to worry about necessarily, it might just be that some things are talked through & checked & that's that. But I am a bit surprised that they've arrived to any conclusion with just 4 hours a week, the first thing I would expect them to say is 'we don't know her enough about her, so lets way for her to go to her new school & they can make any judgments'...

Good luck!!

(sorry, meant lets wait for her to go to her new school)...

My ds was 2yrs 6mo when I found out that his creche had concerns. (actually found out when they spoke to a hv before telling me and the hv just turning up at my door about them but thats a different story)

Their concerns were his number, alphabet and shape ability, also that he wasn't playing with the other children.The HV didn't think there was anything to worry about but suggested referring him to a paed anyway to be on the safe side. My son was diagnosied with an ASD about 14 months ago.

I was upset, it didn't help how I was told and at first I didn't believe it. He doesn't have any behavour or speech problems. But when enough medical people tell you I guess it must be true but I don;t view my son any differently. He's perfect the way he is, ASD and all!

Oh and my ds was at creche 6 hours a week and had only been there a month when concerns were raised with HV.

Doesn't sound like anybody's labelling her to me, it's just forward planning. She may well be fine come nursery but as they are suspecting she may not, it takes time to line up any extra support they and she might need. That's why these things get mentioned so young, the bureaucracy is a mile long. Wouldn't you rather have the help available when/if you think she needs it? It can always be cancelled if everything comes together sooner. But you will kick yourself if later on you decide she does need help and then have to wait months and months for it.

good luck btw.

the thing here is early intervention is always best if its not needed it can be stopped if in a yr or so if needed its really hard to get that help and its really needed asap with a young child

its not labelling your child she wont be given a label of special needs it means she will be helped more regarding speech etc she will not walk away with a label of sn only paediatrician can do this

i think they are right in raising concerns my ds was totally different in pre school setting and not how he was at home and he was later dx as having sn and the help was given at pre school early and he has now started school and has coped greatly as the help was already in place

SN ranges from very mild to severe and its nothing to be ashamed of at all she may well need more help than others and a senco is there just to put tasks in place not segregate her and make her stand out form her peers but just to help her in play and other activities to help her reach peers level

and when you think about it, how unprofessional would they be if they did nothing when they have a child who

is not potty trained
has bitten and scratched staff
doesn't sit still at storytime
won't do as she's asked

just because the child's mum was a 'late developer'???? OK I'm being a bit facetious but you get the picture. they can't go on your developmental history, they can only go on what's in front of them. Many children will be potty trained, have never been 'violent' with staff, do sit still, and do as asked. This does not mean there is anything 'wrong' with your DD simply that her behaviour is being seen as somewhat outside that shown by the cohort she is within.

I've come back to the thread because it really resonates with me - when DS pre school mentioned the senco I was exactly like you and just felt he was too young for them to worry about, etc but for the 5 years since, we have been wanting help and not getting it. I am almost tempted to say "what the hell, let them refer to the senco, nothing will happen as a result anyway!!!!!"

Gladio, very good point.

Waiting lists for referrals are extremely long and you have to wait such a long time for assessments (years sometimes)

HV flagged ds at 2 years old, it has taken 4 years, with different referrals and assessment to get any support put into place.

In my experience the less severe or less obvious any difficulties are, the longer it takes.

Not sitting still at story time? They'd have field day with my almost three yo. She has an allergy to sitting still.

she is not being labelled by the pre school at all and labels are not given out so easily

the pre school have mentioned a senco that is all i think you are taking it too personally if you find out more the role of a senco they are there to deal with NT and SN children through play and activities to help them reach levels that are expected
to closely monitor any other help that may be needed speech therapy etc its not a label and they have done no wrong there dealings with your daughter has made them feel she may need a little bit more help than some other children in all honesty that is great as she wont fall behind her peers but she will not walk away labelled as having special needs unless displays any other behaviour needing to see a pediatrician who is the only person that can label your child

dont see it as personal see it as they want to help your child progress

Piglet.. you are right right right!!

the pre schools and receps are putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on little children now. it's about time it stopped.

Yes, there is lots of pressure on young children with educational goals from a young age etc. That's true.

Having said that, coming originally from a country where children's needs are rarely if ever diagnosed early (which is very helpful when done well) I tend to think that being over-vigilant & identifying things that may not turn out to be problems is better than ignoring things & leaving it til later on, that 'later on' often being a bit indefinite. I also want to say that a 2.11 year old (actually that's basically a 3 year old) is not that young. Its a good age to notice things & spot problems (even small ones) which can then hopefully be dealt with.

I do think though that a 3 year old not sitting still in story time may just be because she's only there 4 hours a week! Not enough time to get used to story time. It may be as simple as that.

No runny, it was an isolated insident and i dont think that they handled it in the correct way. I know dd and her capabilities and no i am not worried, i do not want her labled unessarily at the moment, at the pre school she is at, there are children nearing school age and they might have been comapring her to them. There are a lot of children her age that do not sit still and listen to stories and speak in situations that they feel more comfortable does not mean they have SN, i used to work in that field so know. My MIL who was an SN teacher has seen her playing and sees no problem no red flags, just over zealous nursery teachers wanting to pigeon hole dd at such a young age. The nusery situation she is in is hardly ideal, lack of consistancy and organisation how would you be in that sitaton, get used to staff then they leave?

Well I will wait for her to go to the nursery at the school, she will go there regularly and staff there will be able to make a better judgement. We will just wait and see what they say as they will get to know her better. Thanks for all your constructive and helpful responses.

Plus they did not even tell me, i had to ask how she was doing. I think that she will be better in the new environment where she will be going every day, and will learn the structure and routine and whats expected of her, instead of only 2 hours 2 days a week, in a place where staff are changed like new underwear. And if there are concerns at the new nursery after she has been there for a bit than we will welcome any help that they can provide for her and be more open to suggestions and help.

Cirrosis a lot of children are not potty trained by 3, the HV was not concerned at all! She is already showing signs of interst and has asked to sit on the toilet and do a wee, and that she wants to wear her Postman Pat pants does not make her SN does it? As I said after seh has started at her new Nursery for a bit and they have concerns and want a SENCO referral than fine?

Piglet, i know you have made up your mind and im not trying to convince otherwise.

Would just like to point out that being referred to SENCO does not put your dd on the SN register, just means they would keep an eye on her future development.

Chrrosis how would you feel being dragged to the toilet aganist your will. DD is a usually a placid child who is doing the terrible twos, and there are no other reports of biting and scratching at nursery, poor girl being labled so early because of a couple of things. That is exactly the point i was making, they hardly know her, have not spent time with her. I just had government targets, if a child does not conform to a model they are SN which its not necessarily so. She is probably a late developer with the right amout of input will probably obtain these goals, however if she is still struggling later on then we wil be open to help and support

Calw i will just wait and see what the new setting will say after she is going to be there every day on a regular basis. I am open minded but nmot at the moment.

You really need to get over this idea that your child is being judged and labelled. Do you think staff do this kind of thing for their own amusement? The only reason they do it is because it is their job and because it has been proved to help many.
I don't understand why you are sending your child into a setting where you clearly dislike the methods and don't trust the staff. Keep her at home.

And you should realise by your training that family members are often least likely to see warning signs of problems, not more.

Finally, why bother with AIBU if you are not going to bend even slightly? You don't want opinions, you've already formed yours.

YANBU.

She's only just turned 2 and seems to be doing exactly what she should be at that age. Also, most just over 2 year olds I know aren't potty trained yet!

Try to ignore, imho there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with your DD.

No Runny I am keeping an open mind, and will wait to see what the new setting says. Just because i have not agreed with you does not mean i am closed, i am open to suggestions and will wait and see how is that closed

Having someone keep an eye on your child's development is not a bad thing.

Your dd sounds very bright and boredom might well be the cause of her 'fidgeting', particularly if she only behaves this way in the nursery setting. This could also be identified.

Anyway i will stop going on, good luck.

I think some staff label and judge children because it is easier to blame the child that admit there is something wrong with the education system or that the particular member of staff can't get children to respond in the way they want because the staff or setting are poor quality compared to other providers.

If SEN diagnosis was reaching the right children, there wouldn't be such a high proportion of SEN children who are Summer born - it would be spread equally across all birth months.