Bit miffed why my dd 2.11 is being labled with having SN when i know full well that she is not (long post sorry)

[pigletmania]

I took my dd 2.11 to pre school today, I asked to have a little chat with the manager about how my dd is getting on as i have had no feedback from them, and last time she was there she refused to have her nappy changed and bit and scratched staff (she does not seem to like small dark spaces such as toilets), dd is not violent or aggressive so this was totally out of character. The manager said that if dd was staying on after 3 she would be refered to SENCO as they were concerned that she was not following a routine, and not sitting still at story time or doing as she was asked, wtf, show me a young child that does. Any young child would rather play with the colourful toys or paints on display than sit listening to a story. DD will be going to the nursery attached to the local primary when she turns 3 in March.

DD is very babyish for her age, and her speech is not as fluent as it could be and she is not yet potty trained, but the HV and others have said that it will come when she is ready. She is only at pre school for 4 hours a week, so they do not know how she is really like, at home she is different. DD can say all her alphabet, recognise numbers one to 10, basic colours and shapes and knows her nursery rhymes, and can speak if she wants to. DD is very stubbon and stong minded and not a performer, will do it when she wants in her own time. I explained this to the manager and she was surprised as dd is not like that in pre school. Why are they so quick to lable a child espcially one so young? The manager said also that they have an Early years curriculum, and they have to tick off certain criteria, my goodness not all children are the same and will be at the same stage.

I have studied psychology/child psych to Masteres level so know that each child is different and develops in different ways, they are not robots all developing at the same time, it is a little early imo to make a special needs assumption, i am just a bit upset and sad about this as i know that dd is a late developer like i was and does not have SN. Fair enough once she reaches school age than yes, but at the moment she is still developing and learning, and may catch up soon enough especially once she starts nursery school full time. As the HV has told me a month is an awful long time for a child, so just give it time not jump to conclusions.

A diagnosis would be useful if you were terribly worried that something was wrong but didn't know what or if you were struggling to find the support your DD needed. Given neither of these is the case, could you ask them what purpose they imagine it would serve? Or do they think they get a gold star for every child diagnosed?

Indeed little RedDragon, its not something we were worried and SN did not even come to mind atm, its the government tick boxes thing its sooo anoying, children are differnt. Its like the adoption targets, and the SATS etc, too much testing and finding fault or problem when there may be none.

Having struggled for years with the opposite problem- trying to get a diagnosis for a child that I knew had something wrong with her- I can't believe how trigger happy this preschool are being. Two is very young to have the expectations they have. And of course children develop at different stages. A good preschool should be equipped to deal with that.

Does it matter though in the longterm? If you are happy with her progress then will this referral make such a difference to you? That is aside from the fact it makes you very angry and I understand that. It may be an unnecessary label but it will soon disappear when she goes to school if they see no need for it...surely?

Meanwhile, she will have additional input and may benefit from that just from a purely social point of view.

Is there a possibility that she could increase her hours there too? Sounds mad but you are well trained in all this so will understand that a little more time there each week may help her feel more settled and part of the community there rather than just popping in for 4 hours each week.
They would also see her then more often and could make more informed opinions.

Keeping positive about this placement is the most important thing as she will pick up on your annoyance or feelings of frustration.

We feel passionately when someone suggests what we see are inaccuracies in our children's behaviour but eventually, if they are wrong in their opinion, they will eventually learn this and can learn from it too.

Just one more thing to echo that already said,my youngest read very early and spoke incredibly but at 4 once she began school, we found she had a severe hearing loss due to glue ear and couldn't see without glasses!!!!! My god, how did I not see it but I didn't and she was way ahead for her age. Some children adapt incredibly well.
I would still do a check of both to rule out.

It is very annoying that they are making assumptions about her when she is so young. they do sound trigger happy.

Fortunately having special needs is not something to be ashamed of so, as long as it does not affect any future school placement, I would just try to grit my teeth.

These tales of over zealous staff always make me given that most children who would benefit from early intervention can't get help in spite of their parents pleadings.
I wonder why so many seem to be looking for SN that are not there when most of us can't get anyone to help with SN that are.

So, let me get this right - your DD is 2, knows colours and shapes, can say her alphabet? and the nursery are suggesting she has SN? Because she isn't out of nappies?

She sounds perfectly normal to me - my DD is four and only just learnt her alphabet, she had mild speech delay a paranoid mother but her speech is fine now. At 2, she was saying no more than one word.

With regards to the nappy changing, i think my DD would have been exactly the same as she struggles sometimes with adults she doesn't know well getting in her space - your DD only sees these people for four hours a week so they are effectively strangers. They sound incompetent TBH

my son was EXACTLY the same. The HV reffered him to some "early intervention team" because he was apparently uncontrollable and significantly behind in development at 2.5. Well he is 3.5 now and according to his nursery and the various assesments he has had is now AHEAD in virtually every area, his concentration still needs to develop more but as an example he knows more of the phonics cards than his 5 year old sister (who is the one supposed to be learning them) does!.

If you dont have worries then just ignore it I would say however that the assessments were no problem and did force the people who were worrying to stop!.

I disagree with the people who say that its not a big deal, i think it is a big deal - whilst piglet is confident that her daughter is fine, the nursery will have sown seeds of doubt and its an unnecessary worry. I got my DD a referral at 18m with a peadiatrician as she stopped speaking, my HV was quite happy to watch and wait and voiced the opinion that the refferal would make me worry, it did make me worry - but i was glad i had it as it confirmed all was well - but this was ME wanting the referral, if this had happened at DDs nursery i would have been off my head with worry.

Of course SN is nothing to be ashamed of, but we just want our children to be happy individuals with no mountains to climb, thats quite natural.

Also, piglet had to ASK the nursery for feedback then when she got it they told her that they had concerns re her daughters development - why didnt they pass this on to her without being prompted? They sound like a showwer of idiots

oh forgot to add the new thing now is that they are "worried" about the fact he wont sit for art and craft, stories etc. For some reason both the nursery and the HV are convinced that at 3 (!) they can see a concentration problem. on the other hand my daughter who I AM worried about (aged 5) but is well behaved and quiet gets no attention even though I personally think she is struggling.

And LEM also she does not follow the routine and sit still in story time (show me a toddler that does when there is so much stimulation around), and seems to not speak much at pre school, though she does with me and people she is comfortable with. DD will be going to full time nursery school soon at another location that seems better equiped than the current one. She does speak sentances when she wants, and if not pressured to do so. This morning she asked to sit on the toilet and do a wee like Tutar the mouse from Bear in the Big Blue house, I know that she is not SN just needs a little more time and patience from her caregivers which was not happening where she is currently at but will be in the new school.

Thanks everyone for your support and encrouragement, though i know all is fine, i am a worrier. If later on she does have sPLD like i have its no problem we will help her get support

Exactly LEM if i had not asked they would not have told me [hmmm]. Hope that your dd is getting the help she needs. These care providers do provide worry when sometimes there is none and with a little time and patience the child will develop such skills.

My DD knew all these things before 2 but DOES have SN..but I am not saying your child has SN.

However, I have the opposite problem. People DON'T accept my DD has SN (well professionals do) and just think I am a rubbish parent who keeps her in nappies and doesn't discipline her (she has little understanding). I don't think you can win.

but lucy, Piglet is quite confident that her child has no mountain to climb - which is my point
Her nursery are being daft so she can argue or she can move. There are loads of people having loads of problems with nurseries who are in the same situation.

The mention of SN should not make people terrified or furious. They are not suggesting that little piglet may be a psychopath.

If you want a view on which is worse, an over cautious or premeature and ultimately wrong suggestion of SN - or undiagnosed and ignored symptoms, there is no contest as to which is the real problem.

I am not suggesting that piglet should not be annoyed, in fact I probably would be meeting managers and looking at moving. But it is not and [horror] because it is SN. I feel very sorry for Piglet - fiding out the people caring for your child are being dense is awful

oh thanks piglet - DD is fine now, she does have a few pronunciation niggles but the school are happy with her progress. I bet your DD will flourish in the new nursery - if she wouldn't sit down for storytime then i suggest that they are simply not engaging her!

I agree with Pagwatch, SN does not mean your child is a leper (although some people do act like they are, sadly).

Thats good LEM i am pleased, no i dont think they do one to one work with them. I know that SN is no biggy or I have SPLd myself but will just wait and see how she gets on in this new nursery which sounds so lovely, the teachers are so happy and jolly and really seem to love their job and make time for each child. Sorry i am rushing i have a dd into everything so have to have eyes at the back of my head. I know that onece i was diagnosed as an adult with spld i got the proper support i needed and went to uni which never in a million years would i imagine at school, as i was always the 'thick' one who one teacher said would not amount to much, and could be a clearner . Nothing wrong with that but not nice to hear as a child with ambitions.

Very young still. The abilities and attention span vary hugely at this age. My 2 DC could not have been more different at this age but ended up in the same place.

If their behaviour stands out once they are well into Reception then I think that may be the time to address it.

2 nearly 3 and cos she isnt out of nappies or sitting nicely she might have problems what rot.
Its this shut up and sit down in schools and nurseries from an early age they want and when it doesnt happen they say SN to quick and cos untold worry for that parent.
Most nurseries want a quiet child want a sturtured routine for them thats fine for some kids not ALL kids. Kids are not robots for them to mould into what they want it doesnt work that way.
If not worried tell them. Watch their faces when you do as they will have the look of oh another parent in denial.
I do have kids with SN and I didnt get the early intervention god I wish I had and then I wouldnt have had to fight to get a DX for 4 years. They said my lass had SN when she didnt but they wouldnt listen to me when I said about the ones I was worried about. Go figure eh?

Thanks Dolly yes i agree entirely with you, it is sad they want little robots who do everything at the same time, and thats my line of thought at the moment.The manager said that they have a list of critera that they have to mark off for children of dd age, and it makes me sad that they are labled because they do not fit in a certain critera at such little age. No they dont mind the nappies part just the fact she does not follow their routine, and sit still in storytime and does not speak much, though she does at home. Of course later on if the differences come more pronounced than yes we will be worried and seek help.

She bit and scratched staff, she is not started toilet training, seems to have a speech delay and can not sit still for a short story? Is it really so surprising that there may be a red flag?
I don't see any assumption of SN, just a nod that an assessment may be an idea in the near future. If you have studied child development to masters level I'm surprised you don't agree with them. Of course the likelyhood is that nothing will come of it, but those boxes that they tick off that you are so dismissive of do regularly pick up problems that parents miss as they are with the child all the time and do not see the differences.

I think you are majorly over reacting and should be grateful that you have a service available to you should you need it, when thousands of parents with concerns of SN need to fight tooth and nail for help for their children. YABVU.

I know many people, including myself, who have fought tooth and nail against child care workers who insisted our children had special needs.

Child care workers sometimes get it wrong. Perhaps if they listened to parents more then children would get the help they needed.

I haven't read the whole thread, but when school wanted to assess DD2 for special needs I went along with it. I respected the teacher, and thought they might know more than me. I was pretty sure they would conclude that my child was fine, which they did.

However, they did enrol her in some catch-up programmes for her fine motor skills, and those have made a big difference and also been a lot of fun.

How long was your DD at playgroup? All my children have gone through an excellent playgroup for 2 - 3 year olds. At the beginning of the year there were some wrigglers, but by the end of the year they were all sitting still for stories. They did pack away all the toys first and make sure they'd had two hours of very active play first though!

It sounds to me like some of your problem with this suggestion is that you don't trust the setting your child is in.

I had similar experience with my DS when he was at pre-school 10 years ago. I never believed anything was wrong except delayed speech but they banged on about him not doing as he was told etc etc. A change of pre-school seemed to help for a while, but as soon as he started Reception his behaviour got worse until he was excluded at 5 1/2. He was diagnosed with High Functioning Autism at 6 1/2.
So, I don't want to worry you and it is probably is nothing with your DD, but don't try too hard to prove them wrong - you might end up putting extra stress on her and make her behaviour worse.
My own 3.2 DD is now also showing some strange behaviour at times and doesn't talk at preschool although she's fine at home, and I'm half expecting something to be said about her being 'behind'.
I was a supply teacher and know how different children develop at different rates and have different motivation and agendas - also with 5 kids of my own, I've seen a whole range within my own family.
I hope she settles better into new setting - she seems enthusiastic about the change and it may make all the difference. Could be she never found staff at present preschool very welcoming and she picked up on the chaos and just didn't feel like pleasing them! Good luck.

Sorry - just to clarify 'don't try too hard to prove them wrong' ...I mean, obviously you need to give them all your evidence of why you think she's fine, but don't drive you and her nuts tryin to do everythin they expect her to - as say , she'll get there in her own time. Also, I too hate the new checklists in Early years settings - I've been told by one reception teacher that they can only mark something as achieved when they've seen the child do it themselves, not when asked to do it! ie. a child has to count objects on its own, when it wants to, to be given a tick for counting! That's partly why I gave up teaching - madness!