Bit miffed why my dd 2.11 is being labled with having SN when i know full well that she is not (long post sorry)

[pigletmania]

I took my dd 2.11 to pre school today, I asked to have a little chat with the manager about how my dd is getting on as i have had no feedback from them, and last time she was there she refused to have her nappy changed and bit and scratched staff (she does not seem to like small dark spaces such as toilets), dd is not violent or aggressive so this was totally out of character. The manager said that if dd was staying on after 3 she would be refered to SENCO as they were concerned that she was not following a routine, and not sitting still at story time or doing as she was asked, wtf, show me a young child that does. Any young child would rather play with the colourful toys or paints on display than sit listening to a story. DD will be going to the nursery attached to the local primary when she turns 3 in March.

DD is very babyish for her age, and her speech is not as fluent as it could be and she is not yet potty trained, but the HV and others have said that it will come when she is ready. She is only at pre school for 4 hours a week, so they do not know how she is really like, at home she is different. DD can say all her alphabet, recognise numbers one to 10, basic colours and shapes and knows her nursery rhymes, and can speak if she wants to. DD is very stubbon and stong minded and not a performer, will do it when she wants in her own time. I explained this to the manager and she was surprised as dd is not like that in pre school. Why are they so quick to lable a child espcially one so young? The manager said also that they have an Early years curriculum, and they have to tick off certain criteria, my goodness not all children are the same and will be at the same stage.

I have studied psychology/child psych to Masteres level so know that each child is different and develops in different ways, they are not robots all developing at the same time, it is a little early imo to make a special needs assumption, i am just a bit upset and sad about this as i know that dd is a late developer like i was and does not have SN. Fair enough once she reaches school age than yes, but at the moment she is still developing and learning, and may catch up soon enough especially once she starts nursery school full time. As the HV has told me a month is an awful long time for a child, so just give it time not jump to conclusions.

I think yabu a bit. They aren't 'labelling' your child - they're simply saying that the SENCO might be better placed to assess your dd and to offer suggestions to make things easier for her at playgroup.

Ds2 has had a great many referrals for many different things. Doesn't mean he has a 'label' - just that an expert has been able to assess him and give feedback.

And fwiw, all 3 of mine at 2.11 have been able to sit still and focus on adult led activities - eg reading/craft/storytelling/songs. So I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation.

Really, is that true that there is a higher proportion of SEN in summer babies ? Surely that says a lot ?

of course many children are not potty trained at this age - I am not saying this is a problem

My point is that neither are the staff!

They are putting a few things together and asking a trained specialist to have a look and see what they think

I do think you are looking at this all wrong. It's not about labelling or saying your child is a problem in any way, it's about looking at the child's needs and meeting them.

You really do seem to be seeing it as an insult, it's really not.

I agree with you that it will be better to wait till she's in nursery and over 3, anyway. I just hope that if they want SENCO involvement you will be able to accept it in the helpful light that it's offered. And I agree with Milly that sometimes immaturity or non readiness can be seen as a problem for the child when it's actually the setting that's expecting too much. however that does not mean that settings are always wrong to refer for SENCO input or that it's any kind of labelling to do so.

The other thing I have learnt by bitter experience is that whether or not the system is 'wrong' and failing summer born kids...if your child still needs help to keep up with the cohort, then they may need SENCO or extra help; you have to deal with the reality of the setting they are in (unless you are going to change the entire education system of the UK which some of us would like to do but are clearly not going to be able to do!)

I wish you the very best of luck anyway - hope your DD loves her new nursery.

MillyR - saying a child has SN is not "labelling and judging" them, nor is it "blaming" the child, why do you talk as if it is such a stigma?

i had lots of referrals for my son for stuff. it makes you feel like crap quite frankly. these are very small children and i would be very wary.

are there too many 'specialists' about atm and are people trying to get them referrals? because it seems that way to be.

this child isn't even 3. it's madness imo.

Thanks Claw, she is still going through the terribal twos, wants her way and throws strops when not given what she wants. She is very strong minded and will do what she wants when and thats the problem. Hopefully at this new setting they will see her everyday on a regular basis so will be able to make a better judgement, and if it is found she does need extra help than so be it, i would rather her get help and support than see her struggle, does not mean she is not clever or not amount to much later on.

I was grateful that ds2 was referred rather than taking a 'wait and see' attitude.

i was never glad that my ds was referred it have just cause me years of worry and spoilt my time with him and i mean that truthfully.

I don't expect you to agree with me (even though I'm right ), but you seem to have a fully formed opinion and seem overly angry. I suspect you are feeling judged as a parent, which is common in this scenario.

the question remains though, why are you sending your child into to people you think so little of? And I have to say, as someone who worked in childcare for years, I would be very concerned at a child biting and scratching a care worker in the scenario you describe. If there is no issue with the child I would be investigating the carer, because thats just not a normal occurance, IMHO.

I agree with you Cirrosis i will just wait and see, and will be open to help if she needs it. My dh is very closed (he is Maltese) and for them they do not bleive in SN like dyslexia, dyscalculia(i have). I can see him being quite closed, but if he were to meet the teachers and they voiced their concerns to him i am sure that he would take it on board and accept it. Just want the best for dd, and extra help if she needs it is not a bad thing after all i struggled all the way through school without help so know how its like, only when i was assessed as an adult and got help in college that i fulfilled my potential. I have a numeracy age of 10 years old, I can wholey agree with that.

'it makes you feel like crap'

This is the thing - it's totally natural to feel that way. I did when it first became obvious my ds was going to have 'needs'

However as the parent you do need to sweep that feeling away, if it means you are going to be resistant to and insulted by referrals for your child; it's only ever done to help the child, to meet their needs. It is nothing to do with labelling them, judging them, or blaming themas fanjo says. It's simply not about that and it is people's own assumptions, and prejudices, that make them feel this way.

I know, cos I have been there and felt all this stuff! Once you've been through it and come to terms with it you are not so threatened by the idea of referrals to senco/sn etc.

No runny they did not express concern about it to me. There was someone on here who was a child psychologist who said that from what i said they way they handled the situation could have been wrong and that it might have contributed to her behaviour not to attribute all the blame onto dd.

good luck piglet. Sounds like your DH might need some help to understand it if he's married to someone with your background and still doesn't 'believe' in SpLD!!!

I am sure your own experiences will help you to help your DD as time goes on if she needs it.

FFTM, I am using the terminology of labelling and judging in response to Runnybottom's use of the term.

There is nothing wrong with having a SEN. There is nothing wrong with someone making a judgement that a child has an SEN.

There is something very clearly wrong with saying a child has an SEN when they don't. That is not a criticism of children who have an SEN. If a child is misdiagnosed as being short sighted, and the parents take the glasses off the child when they realise, I don't take it as a criticism of me as a glasses wearer.

Making out a child has an SEN when they do not is damaging because it stops people addressing what the cause of the problem was. Perhaps the child (not the OP's, but a child in this situation) is being abused at the nursery, perhaps an older child is being bullied at school so becomes quiet and un-cooperative, perhaps the childcare provider is inexperienced or the setting is poorly managed.

The opposite is also true - a parent could be accused of abuse when the child in fact has a medical condition or SEN.

When i wanted to talk to them about the biting and scratching incident they did not seem concerned and did not really want to talk to me about it, it was me who brought the subject out. That was so out of character, i could understand if i were getting regular reports about it.

No dh does not believe i have an SPLD and thinks that its all rubbish . He read my assesment report and thought that it sounded like i was a read case

There are posters on here saying they know because they have been in the situation. But you have only been in the situation of going through the process with a child who does have an SEN. You have not been through the process with a child who doesn't have an SEN.

meant right case.

Well, fair enough.

I still feel, given that it IS hard to tell at this age, I'd rather my DD had been thought to have SN when she didn't than thought not to have one when she does(what actually happened).

I understand what you are saying Milly ( and I didn't raise your language in the first place ) but I think there is a tone in terms of SN that is not the same as glasses wearing.
People don't get labelled as glasses wearers.
A parent would not say "the teacher is upsetting me by labelling my DD as short sighted! How dare she judge her as a glasses wearer"

There is a tone which grates. Rightly or wrongly it is there and it grates.

To OP if your dd is moving to a different pre-school/nursery soon then why are you so concerned with labels? The new place will form their own view of your dd.

I'm a bit that the pre-school think she should be the same there as she is at home. I don't know many children who would be.

I also think you need to chill a bit. Ds (5) has been diagnosed with SEN. A friend of mine was absolutely horrified and surprised that I was so laid back about it. My view is I'm pleased that the issue has been picked up at a young age when there is time for it to resolve (with help) before it starts affecting his school work more than it does already.

He may improve or he may not however he is my child and he will get all the support and help that I can provide for him. I think there is a big difference between SEN and SNs problems too.

The entire problem needs addressing as a whole. It is rather like some of the social services departments which have been investigated recently. They are failing to intervene when they should and intervening when they should not at the same time. Both problems arise from the same deficiency in management, judgement and procedures.

In some parts of the country the entire system needs improving so that staff are capable of making more appropriate judgements.

it's sad when you see it from the other perspective though, kids who arrive in reception with obvious problems but because they didn't go to nursery and the parents couldn't see it, nothing was flagged up earlier. imo parents are often the last to see things. i say this as a mum who didn't realise her firstborn had a lazy eye, even though nursery had mentioned it to me I thought I knew best, I'd never seen it blah blah. we go into 'attack' mode should anyone dare to question our darlings abilities (I say we, I'm sure I'm not alone)

all they said was they would refer to senco - it's hardly a big deal and not a 'label'. you seem very angry rather than a bit miffed. prob cos you think the nursery is crap in general, and they don't sound great tbh, but take it on the chin about the senco comments, it wasn't meant as a personal insult (I would hope )

Milly, ds2 doesn't have SEN to my knowledge, he has had speech delay, this is resolving. however I don't have a problem with him being 'labelled' - if he needs extra support I want him to have it, if he doesn't need it then it won't be offered.

Dd wears glasses. I didn't spot it, it was only in a reception year eye test it was picked up. I'm VERY glad they referred proactively, as her sight in one eye was virtually non-existent. I had NO IDEA. After patching and wearing glasses her sight is infinitely better.

Being 'clever' has nothing to do with whether they may need extra support in some way. Similarly there is nothing 'wrong' with being 'not clever' or having SN.

but milly we're talking about this poster's situation - she's not been through any process and nobody is saying her child has SN when they don't......this is what pag is saying I think - this view that even being referred to a SENCO is in any way labelling, blaming, setting up a process that is mis-understanding needs, or diagnosing needs, is quite discriminatory really.

It's basically prejudice.

and prejudice is something we all need to challenge in ourselves.