to think that Catholics shouldn't be Catholics if they find their leader so hateful?

[slightlystressed]

Thread about a thread I'm afraid.

Lots of catholics seem to condemn the Pope for his views on homosexuals, women, condoms in Africa etc.

But he is the leader of their church, and was elected by other cardinals who must share his views, they knew he was extremly conservative when the voted for him.

Why do catholics carry on being catholic when they seem to disagree with so many things their church preaches?

My dh is Catholic, and yes the Catholic Church does hold every uncouth views on homosexuality, women priests and gay marriage, contraception etc, this is not a new thing and is important within the Catholic faith, even though you might not agree with it and goes against moden thinking.

If you dont like it, go somewhere else! One would not expect Muslims, Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to change their core principles now would you! Why expect the Catholic church to

I have a lot of respect for Catholics and used to be one, but I do think there is something reasonable in this OP - it is not necessarily as offensive as some think.

itsmeolord - you said (pages ago - sorry haven't read the whole thread) something like: you need to try to change the faith from within, to leave is to give up. I respect this position, but I do think the OP has a point when she says later (again, paraphrasing): if you keep going to Mass, etc, how are you communicating your disagreement?

In my more bitter moments I do have some resentment to those who just stick their fingers in their ears and carry on. Not Catholic activists for change - but those who don't agree with Catholic teaching, don't want certain aspects of it to play a part in their lives, but can't be bothered to rock the boat either. For the rest of us, who are perhaps more philosophically fastidious, or have different circumstances, they are collaborating in making the 21st century Catholic church an impossible place to be, when we should be able to rise up as a significant faction and demand that our erstwhile home be made habitable for us, in good faith with our consciences.

I miss the church, desperately, sadly, like a lover who has betrayed you repeatedly but you want him back. I envy those who are at peace in the church but I resent those who have chosen a false peace by ignoring their consciences and therefore reinforce the status quo. Women cannot speak within the hierarchy of the church - we don't exist - priests don't even have wives who might have a word in their ears. So how would they notice how deep the disquiet is with certain aspects of church teaching unless we left?

So, no, I don't think the OP's question was stupid.

I go to Mass with dd out of respect for my dh but will not Convert to be a Catholic as I do not agree with some of the Catholic docterin.

This is a remarkably stupid and pedestrian question which shows you haven't really thought it through. Bordering on the offensive in fact.

Actually I don't think it is an unreasonable question per se- the OP is inviting Catholics to explain their reasoning. I for one don't mind debating calmly like this.

To answer the OP, I was raised a Catholic and decided at 17 that there were too many elements of it which I could not agree with. My faith in God did not waiver - if anything, it intensified. My faith became more personal and I joined a church which was more compatible with the way I believed / felt / worshipped. So, in short, I could not continue to come under an umbrella which required what I believed were incompatibilities with my conscience. However, I am a Christian. Different label, but I lost nothing personally by shedding the Catholic label and it was something I felt I had to do.

Sorry for the rambling personal anecdote, but my answer to the OP is I didn't find any leader 'hateful' (what a word???!!!) but I see her point about coming out from an organization with aspects you can't support. These labels may be just labels, but others are entitled to make certain assumptions about you if you choose to ally yourself with groups with a controversial public agenda.

I am with toddlerama, I believe in God and sometimes read the Bible and have faith, but the Catholic faith is not for me.

Interesting debate. I'm not going to add to it but I do have a question.

Someone mentioned that the catholic church has over 1 billion members. Does this number consist of practising catholics or the number of people who were baptised into the catholic church.

I agree that the opening question is a valid point, however I don't think it is phrased very well as it makes it sound like all catholics find the pope 'hateful'... but I'm probably being a bit pedantic! This has been a good thread - much less one sided than the previous one about the Pope with less hysteria and more intelligence on both sides methinks

That should end in a ? and not a .

I'm a Catholic, I go to mass (but not every Sunday, sometimes I'm too hungover ). In all my times at church, I've never heard anything about abortion, contraception or homosexuality. Lots about following Jesus' example and being loving, forgiving and kind. Lots on helping the third world, lots on tolerance, understanding and reaching out to others. The obsession with sex issues etc is much more in the non-catholic world's perception of the church, honestly.
The Catholic church does change, but it changes extremely slowly, which some would see as a virtue. Personally I'd rather sit there thinking "hmm, do I agree with that?" instead of going to the C of E where they flap around being trendy and trying to alter everything constantly to get "down with the kids". Last time I went to C of E, they'd changed the words of the Lord's Prayer so it was no longer "forgive us our trespasses". To me, it was not so much the Lord's Prayer as the Lord's text msg. Bloody shame, all the old ladies were confused, why do it?
Anyway, am rambling but I do think the acceptance of same-sex relationships has come a long way in our society very rapidly over the past 20-30 years, after centuries of oppression. My guess is, eventually, the Catholic church will come round to the idea. And I think it should - and will - also accept women priests and married priests too. I think it is only a matter of time. It may take many decades, mind, but I'm sure I'm pretty typical of many of today's Catholics to have absolutely no problem with gay marriage. If based on love and commitment - why not?

Oh and I've always liked the pope since I was reliably informed that the pope smokes dope - or was that the last one?

Oh, here we go.

I haven't read all of this thread, will do so now, but wanted to just say this.

Gordon Brown is my Prime Minister. I didn't vote for him to be so, the government decided it. The public had no say in Brown taking over from Blair.

I disagree with a lot of what Brown says, I disagree with his policies, his support for the Iraq war, the fact that he capped the defence budget when soldiers were dying fighting for an unjust war.

So if I go on holiday and someone asks me why I live in a country that is ruled by such a bastard, what do I say?

How is being a catholic different?

I believe in the catholic faith, the faith that comes from the New Testament. I agree with some of the guidelines for life. I do not agree with all of their guidelines, I do not agree with this Pope and think they chose him because he represents a more traditional view of catholicism. I think the church is corrupt and has a lot to answer for.

So what do I do about it? I come onto forums like this and hopefully change peoples minds about catholics being bleating sheep. I write to catholic newspapers. I am outspoken at every turn. I protest and I will be there protesting when the Pope visits.

If you cannot see the individuals for the crowd then I suggest you change the way you look at things.

trickyteenagersmum... but seriously, thank you for your serious post, which has always been my experience of the catholic church too.

Agree Tricky. The dogmatic view of the Catholic church just isn't one that is recognizable to me.

I went to a Catholic all girls school and the nuns (who were ex communicated by Pope Paul, long story) seemed to organize protests for all sorts of issues (nuclear power etc) and we very concerned with human rights.

Issues such as homosexuality/abortion were taught in a very neutral stance -- i.e. 'this the policy of the Catholic Church. How does this reconcile with your beliefs...'

In other words, we were actively encouraged to debate, discuss, defend our own beliefs and sometimes they did conflict with what Rome was advocating.

"itsmeolord - you said (pages ago - sorry haven't read the whole thread) something like: you need to try to change the faith from within, to leave is to give up. I respect this position, but I do think the OP has a point when she says later (again, paraphrasing): if you keep going to Mass, etc, how are you communicating your disagreement?"

I (like Rhubarb) write letters to catholic papers, discuss views with my priest and other parishoners, discuss my views with non-catholics.

That is what I mean about change from within, as a collective if people become more tolerant/liberal then the entire organisation will eventually become more so.

Glad to see the thread has turned back to the original point of it!

Thank you for your responses.

Tricky makes a good point about the actual services she attends, and can see that being a catholic at ground level (sorry cant think of the correct phrase) is quite different from the very conservative views of the pope.

As a complete Atheist I guess I find all religion quite hard to grasp, but can understand that the feeling of being in a community that supports one another is very comforting and healthy.

The reason Im more interested in catholism is because I come from a family of atheists and my DP comes from catholics (although most non-practicing), and Ive only ever attended catholic weddings, baptisms and funerals.

If you keep going to mass.............

Well by going to mass I am communicating with people who share my beliefs. I am making time in my week for prayer and for God. Some of those people may not share my views, some may be racist, some child abusers, some thieves and some murderers. I have no way of knowing this. But I don't think that gathering together people of the same faith for prayer is showing your commitment to the Vatican.

I have always said that if the priest lectured a homophobic sermon or on anything I strongly disagreed with, I would make my feelings known by gathering up my family and walking out.

I once did confront my priest over an anti-abortion newsletter he was giving out. It was quite graphic, used shock tactics and was really heavy-handed. He seemed shocked when I showed it to him and admitted that he didn't always check the contents of the newsletters thoroughly. He agreed to cancel the subscription.

If you don't go and lend your voice then the only people left will be the sheep and the bigots.

RockbirdandHerSpork is absolutely rignt!
But I can understan slightlystressed's quetion
I used to be a catholic... For 10 years now I'm a protestant.
And I must say the pope was not one of the reasons I changed my religon. The pope is just a man... he'll die... and an other one will come : a nice man or an awful man, whith an open mind or not... So?
The sense of belonging to a religious community is not a question of the man who is at the top, but a question of faith and culture.
When I left catholic church the pope was Jean-Paul 2. And I quite liked him because of what he represented when he was younger, for what he acheived as a man... and yet I left.
I left because my faith and feelings are more protestant than catholic : from the begining I was a catholic by accident (because my parents are)
Condoms, gays, pill, etc ; what the pope says IS NOT A LAW. You can choose. It's between you and God and between you and you!!! One more time THE POPE IS JUST A MAN and catholics know that wery well.
Oh my God!!! It would be so so so so long to explain what's happening between catholics and their Church : the love-hate relationship, the fact they don't go to the mass BUT want a beautiful wedding in a beautiful church, the fatc they DON'T CARE all their life and want a religous funeral!!!!! And so on.
A 2000 years relationship...

Look now : would you leave the United Kingdom
if you desaprouve your queen?

It was "a view from Belgium" where we have 1 king AND 2 queens.

'If you don't go and lend your voice then the only people left will be the sheep and the bigots.'

Yup. The ones who comment on Damian Thompson's blog on things Catholic in the Daily Telegraph.

I agree with them about the beauty of the old liturgy (the modern one's appalling in its use of English), but some of the comments on women and gays are dreadful. I would never take my daughter to Mass at a church where I thought those views were shared by a large proportion of the congregation.

Rhubarb, I agree about not being blamed for what the Prime Minister does just because you live here. However this is just a bit different.

I'd say it was more like this. If you were into politics to make your country a better place you might be a Tory because they seemed the ones best suited to achieve that.

If the day came that the Tory leadership started encouraging immoral/illegal acts and beliefs (and you had no way to stop them) wouldn't you change parties or even have no party at all and just do your personal best?

Wouldn't staying with the party and being seen as a supporter make you in a small way responsible? All the more so if you were known to be a good and decent person since that would encourage others to join.

What immoral/illegal acts are the Catholic church encouraging then? Assuming that is what you are implying.

abride - the majority of catholics don't think that way at all. The most inspirational people I've ever met have been catholics, and the most disturbed and bigoted people I've ever met have been catholics.

Comments on that blog will be moderated, who decides what comments go in and what don't? And what kind of people does the blog attract?

onager, yes I could change 'parties' if you like. But I believe in communion, I believe in the sanctity of life, I believe in the trinity. You are asking me to change to a party that does not share my fundamental beliefs. And should I change parties do you honestly think that there are no bigoted CofEs? I would resent having the Queen as Head of the Church almost as I resent having the Pope.

It would be too easy to leave and why should I? This is a religion I love, why should I leave it because of a handful of bigots? Surely what this religion needs is more of us liberals standing up for what we believe in, for the true message of catholicism - love, peace, forgiveness, mercy, acceptance.

I have, in my time, explored other religions and other faiths but I have found none that represent my beliefs as deeply as catholicism.

and actually abride, just looking at his blog he has a lot of people criticising the Pope for his views.