to think that Catholics shouldn't be Catholics if they find their leader so hateful?

[slightlystressed]

Thread about a thread I'm afraid.

Lots of catholics seem to condemn the Pope for his views on homosexuals, women, condoms in Africa etc.

But he is the leader of their church, and was elected by other cardinals who must share his views, they knew he was extremly conservative when the voted for him.

Why do catholics carry on being catholic when they seem to disagree with so many things their church preaches?

Neither Ratzinger nor any member of his immediate family joined the NSDAP (Nazi Party). Ratzinger?s father was critical of the Nazi government, and as a result the family had to move four times before he was ten years old.

But I understood he was.

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."

Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.

Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205

This lot certainly think so. What is going on?

Hully - he is voted in to represent God by a small group. However, he is not voted in by every single catholic, therefore, it is not so unusual for many to disagree with a particular appointment.

Of course he puts his own take on things, he is human and it would be impossible for his own personal views not to affect his decisions.

The whole point of being human really is that we have choices, we are supposed to decide what is a good choice and what is a bad choice. We get it wrong an awful lot, which is basically why we say Jesus died on the cross for our sins. In other words, we are not infallible but we can beg forgiveness because of the sacrafice made for us.
(v basic explanation but you get the gist of it)

So, even the Pope has to make a choice about what is right and what is wrong, and make errors when making those choices.

So he isn't considered divine any longer? Does anyone know when that change happened?

No again Eleanora. It just means it is not 'hearsay' as you put it. It does have firm foundations, based on prayer and study by saints and scholars over a period of 2000 years actually...

Blasphemy! the pope isn't just voted in! Each of those cardinals is moved by god to pick the man god wants to represent him on earth!

Vatican II?

You've got it in one yet again Johnny

Alot of those quotes you have put there are analogies, just as the bible is not meant to be taken literally (think burning bush etc), neither are those quotes.

Onager - apologies, yes misunderstood.

I haven't said I don't want to be blamed for anything my "organisation" does, but it is wrong to blame all members for the actions of a few when those few have been castigated within that organisation as well as by the outside world.

I think this explains it properly

Onegar that is what happens yes.

The Pope is elected by the eligible Cardinals who receieve direction from God. They could hardly do a ballot of over a billion members could they? Imagine how long it would take to collect the results?

And actuially, Hully, I think you were being disingenuous there as none of your sources were after the nineteenth century (correct me if I am wrong)

So he definitely isn't divine? I'm sure he used to be. They may be seen as analogies now, in the same way the bible is, but they both used ot be taken literally. I am very interested in when the shift in view occurred. Anyone know?

I work in Holocaust education,. If Ratzinger was a paid up Nazi, I'd know. The fact is that he wasn't. He was just German at the wrong time, as were lots of other people who lived through it.

And Eleanora is barking mad, I don't know why anyone is biting anymore.

'The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15?17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 ("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . "). '
copied and pasted from my link

I think it was Vatican II but not sure.
If you are going to criticise catholics for changing their views bear in mind that this whole discussion started becasue catholics have NOT changed their views on certain issues (can we ever win??)
The point about change is that it needs to be considered and happen slowly, not just on a whim.

Thank you Johnny, but I am afraid that doesn't help. May I have an exegesis?

Basically, it has never changed. just not clearly stated until clarified during Vatican II.

Also that concerns infallibility rather than divinity.

Papal infallibility is a tenet which has to be applied to something. It isn't automatic. So, eg, most recent example I can think of off the top of my head is the Assumption of Mary. Papal infallibility was used there, making the Assumption into Catholic dogma. But everything the Pope says isn't (and has never been) infallible.

But what are you saying? Of course the Pope isn't fully divine. He isn't God. Or Jesus.

'If you kill an "abortion doctor," do you go to heaven when you die?'

Thou shalt not kill.

Pretty unambiguous, Hullygully. If you kill you are breaking a commandment. It is a mortal sin to murder someone.

That's why the Hitler Bomb Plot was a terrible moral dilemma for some of the Catholic plotters. Killing Hitler in cold blood was quite different from killing an enemy on the battle field.

Thanks rockbird I think most people accept that the Pope was never a Nazi. It's just a handy thing for people to be able to say... he was alive in 1943.... IN GERMANY! well he must be a Nazi then. Just like everone in Ireland in 1983 made IRA bombs in their shed or anyone alive in Russia in the 50's was helpling Stalin out.

I have decided that for my sanity Eleanora must be mad and a plain bigot. How anyone thinks the things she comes out with are funny beggars belief. What next Ian Huntley jokes?

'So he isn't considered divine any longer? '

He's not the Dalai Llama (sp).

Murder is a mortal sin.

That is the argument as to why Catholics do not suicide bomb. Murder is a sin, suicide is a sin and both excludes you from Heaven eternally so there is nothing to gain from it. If you are a true Catholic you would never want to be excluded from Heaven. Muslims offer the idea of 'Martyrdom' in a way Catholicism does not. Blow yourself up and no virgins are coming your way for Catholics