to think that Catholics shouldn't be Catholics if they find their leader so hateful?

[slightlystressed]

Thread about a thread I'm afraid.

Lots of catholics seem to condemn the Pope for his views on homosexuals, women, condoms in Africa etc.

But he is the leader of their church, and was elected by other cardinals who must share his views, they knew he was extremly conservative when the voted for him.

Why do catholics carry on being catholic when they seem to disagree with so many things their church preaches?

I know that: I'm a cradle Catholic and have Catholic friends. But obviously a small and vociferous minority does think like that. And they can't wait to invite over like minds from the Anglicans so that we have even more like them.

That said, some of the liberal wing annoy me too. Loony tunes instead of decent hymns and appointing people with titles such as 'Director for Truth and Reconciliation'. Utterly pretentious.

itsmeolord, we're mostly talking about the treatment of gay people. Discrimination is illegal and immoral. There are other things, but the child abuse isn't actually church policy is it while the discrimination is. (though following a leader who helped cover it up would make ME feel queasy)

Rhubarb, I take your point about the other aspects of being a Catholic and why that would be difficult for you, but many in recent threads have spoken as though they have little interest in most of the rules/ritual and only really care about their closeness to god. Which presumably all Christian sects agree on and which can exist independently of the actual church.

And yes I'm quite sure the other churches have their share of hypocrisy and corruption. All man made institutions are prone to that.

the beauty of religion is that it is entirely a matter of your own choosing - you choose your religion, and to what extent you adhere to the mumbo jumbo it espouses, and to what extent you agree with the figures of authority within it. so catholics can be catholics and think the pope uis a total ahole in my op!

Riven - where exactly in the quran does it set out equality of women?

(Apologies for changing the topic from Catholicism)

abride, so you don't like traditional catholics because they are all bigots and you don't like liberal catholics because they are all wishy washy. Very presumptive.

What does that make me then? I'd love to know where would you put me on that scale.

Onager, yes there are catholics who belong in the loosest possible terms.

Look, I was always a Labour voter, but then Blair started an unjust war, they brought in tuition fees and have proved themselves to be just as bad as the Tories. So what do I do? Do I join the Tories despite my working class background and convictions? Or the Lib Dems who arse around somewhere in the middle changing their minds according the popular vote. All of them are corrupt.

I can either not vote at all, call myself a Labour supporter in the loosest possible sense and just keep out of it all. Or I can keep my Labour convictions, rattle some cages, join some protests and call for change along with a few others. Between us we might just gather a following and we might just make the government sit up and take notice. We can but try.

What would you do?

I don't have time to read the thread- will bookmark for later though, because it is a topic close to my heart.

You don't give back your British passport because you don't agree with whoever won the elections and became PM, do you? You don't feel less British because you don't agree with everything your country's leader does, do you?

As Catholics we believe we are the Church- collectively and individually. The Pope may lead the Church but we take individual responsibility to influence its direction and its behaviour. There are many, many Catholics who hold radically different views on all sorts of topics including birth control and homosexuality. They work within the Church to take in the direction they believe is the right one. The fact that there is a hierarchy within the Church does not remove free will and the imperative to think for yourself- God would not have given us a brain and a moral conscience otherwise!

Thanks Riven. I am going to have a proper look through your link later, when the children are in bed. My initial thought, however, is that the first point is the only one that is really about equality - the others are clutching at straws. Anyway, this can be debated on another thread (perhaps when I've looked through the link properly!)

OK, this was the last post on this subject, sorry for hijacking the thread!

TheMysticMasseuse - thank you for putting it better than I did.

You are quite right of course, the church is its people just as Britain is its nationals.

I do feel angry that the Pope should represent us. I don't think he does and nor do a lot of people. We are the church, we are catholicism.

4.34. Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart; and scourge (beat) them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

in numerous hadiths on which are based the Islamic laws, we learn of the woman's role - to stay at home, to be at the beck and call of man to obey him (which is a religious duty), and to assure man a tranquil existence. Here are some examples of these traditions:

The woman who dies and with whom the husband is satisfied will go to paradise.
A wife should never refuse herself to her husband even if it is on the saddle of a camel.
Hellfire appeared to me in a dream and I noticed that it was above all peopled with women who had been ungrateful. "Was it toward God that they were ungrateful?" They had not shown any gratitude toward their husbands for all they had received from them. Even when all your life you have showered a woman with your largesse she will still find something petty to reproach you with one day, saying, "You have never done anything for me."
If anything presages a bad omen it is: a house, a woman, a horse.
Never will a people know success if they confide their affairs to a woman.

Islam on rape:

Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. Women who allege rape, without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience, are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.

I personally do not believe Islam treats women equally. I have studied Islam in depth and found that Islamic societies do fundamentally oppress women. One does not just need to look at Saudi where women can't even vote to understand that Islam may advocate the equality of souls but it certainly does not advocate the equality of men and women's earthly bodies.

Now I despise Islam every bit as much as I despise Christianity (and any other superstition you can think of. I don't leave out a single one, trust me). I think that every superstition has a substantial proportion of raving arseholes and farnkly dangerous people among its fans.
However, it does cheer me to be reminded yet again that there are plenty of nice, relatively sensible people who concentrate on those aspects of their chosen myth system which are about being nice to other people, being fair and honorable in your dealings etc rather than KILL THE INFIDEL and PROTECT ABUSERS AS THE INSTITUTION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN LESSER BEINGS LIKE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
ANd the more these people put pressure on the homophobic sexist abusive bigots who rise to positions of power in such institutions, the more possible it becomes to regard superstition as a harmless little quirk some people have rather than the powerful force for social damage that it so often is.

Great post themysticmasseuse - I think what you've said sums things up brilliantly.

As a fairly conservative Catholic I don't feel angry about the current Pope representing me as you do Rhubarb, but I am intersted in listening to all the intelligent views and resonings which are coming across here.

Perhaps as a more liberal catholic you could see the current Pope as being sent from God to bring some of these issues which are underlying in our faith out into the open? It is only by discussing them that they will ever change or be modified- and you can't deny that benedict has certainly promoted A LOT of discussion about some of the more unpopular values upheld by the church.

Solidgoldbrass, superstition and Christianity are actually opposite in nature. Superstition is based on the idea that the universe is chaotic and good or bad things happen through luck which we can possibly control by turning round three times and touching our toes (or similar!) Christianity is based on the idea that the universe has an order to it and that things happen for a reason, and there is a 'divine plan'. When we pray we pray that God's will will be done.

Just wanted to point that out!

freddo you're exactly right again. The Catholic church is very anti things like fortune tellers or palm readers, anything supersticious.

Freddo- I love the idea that even if you disagree with the current Pope, you cannot help but be glad that these issues are being brought to the fore. What a well thought out, positive post.

Thanks Johnny!

Freddo: That is actually one of the more interesting arguments I have heard why one brand of superstition is superior to others.
Yet many people who believe in the better-established brands of mythology have the same attitude as those who are into the minor ones: that you can persuade or coax or even coerce your imaginary friend into doing you favours by means of certain rituals.

And it doesn;t alter the fact that believing in invisible superpowered beings is inherently daft, whether you call them God or the Lucky Pixie.

When I attended school at a Catholic school we were still taught entirely by nuns. They were really enlightening and encouraged the girls as well as the boys to strive for whatever they wanted. I know I will probably get a whole lot of responses about the cruelty etc. etc. etc. but I can only speak for my particular school.

What we were always taught was that Jesus did not want people to blindly follow him.

Consequently the person who can question their faith on a regular basis is probably more enlightened than one who blindly follows that faith.

slightlystressed has asked a perfectly legitimate question.

I guess if you take a simplistic view of it you can equate it to your own family. You might not like some the things some members of your family do or say but you are not going to stop being part of that family.

Solidgoldbrass - you have no understanding of the catholic faith!! I do not ask God to 'do me favours', I ask that his will be done and pray for acceptance!

SGB, can I just ask that you respect our beliefs and not compare them to superstition. I do not go around at Christmas time telling all the children that FC is a huge lie. I don't like the fact that Christmas is now wrapped up in Father Christmas and I don't perpetuate the myth onto my children. But neither do I go around telling people how stupid they are for telling their children about him.

You do not believe in God, that is your prerogative. I do. I also happen to be quite intelligent, not prone to hysterics, questioning and cynical.

Let's not turn this thread into one of those "Oh look at the stupid God believers" thread. I respect you, please respect me.