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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to consider aa a dangerous cult?

923 replies

Kirkers · 29/01/2010 03:47

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

OP posts:
snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:34

I had a look at the orange papers - looks very american and hence different to what happens in the uk.

When I went to AlAnon (not been for over 9 years, I took want I wanted and left the rest, as I was encouraged to - pretty crap for a cult) there was no "counselor" or "leader" people took things in turns and no-one had to consider anyone elses experience/opinion as more valid than their own.

Alanon made a positive difference to my life and expected nothing back

AlAnon did not want anything from me

It didn't even require me to agree with anything/anyone

When I left after having gained some useful tools for everyday living, no-one asked why or demanded I go back

If by "brainwashing" you mean "helping people to see things differently" then I guess most counselling/relate/CBT etc is "brainwashing" too

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 13:35

Kirkers, are you posting because you are worried that if you go to AA you are joining a cult? Because if so, just go and see what its like, and give it more than a few meetings. If you don't like it, then find another route to solving your drink issues. But do something, don't just do nothing.

MIFLAW · 29/01/2010 13:35

I also think that there is a lot of confusion on this site between a treatment centre using AA principles and AA itself.

No one is ever kicked out of AA (someone who is violently drunk may occasionally be asked to leave a meeting but is welcome back when his or her behaviour does not endanger others.) A treatment centre, on the other hand, can of course kick people out, and that is true whether they are 12 step or not.

AA recieves no money from such treatment centres and indeed has a policy of refusing it. If you doubt this, phone AA. tell them you wish to leave them some money in your will. You will find that there is a maximum and that they will refuse all larger donations.

I am especially interested in what "12 step horror stories" might be. If you don't like the 12 steps, stop doing the 12 steps, FFS!

I look forward to the sequel - "I put an electric drill on my hand and it hurt but I kept right on drilling horror stories."

AccioPinotGrigio · 29/01/2010 13:36

Kirkers - do you want the advice of medical professionals or do you want an open debate. If the former, go contact those people directly in some way. If the latter, then answer some of the questions that are being put to you here.

What is driving your need to believe that AA as a cult. What's pissed you off so badly that you are unwilling to acknowledge the real life experience who have found AA helpful and preventing you from accepting that whilst AA is not a solution for everybody it is also clearly, in the UK at least, not a dangerous cult.

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 13:37

Could anybody supply me with evidence that aa does more good than harm?

The plural of anecdote is not data.

OP posts:
TheRomanceOfItAll · 29/01/2010 13:39

Lol, I though OP had gone fucking mental and that this would be a thread about the darkly suductive powers of the AA (car breakdown recovery service).

IvaNighSpare · 29/01/2010 13:42

I'll do that when you providence evidence that AA does more harm than good

snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:42

YABU

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 13:43

Mum of Oscar: I want opposite opinion.
Tell me how this conversation goes down in aa if it is allowed to be discussed. Ask aa people to discuss 12 step horror stories. Tell me how aa react to criticism.

OP posts:
CinnabarRed · 29/01/2010 13:44

"Could anyone supply me with evidence that AA does more good than harm?"

NO. Because:

  1. You are, yet again, asking for a level of data that doesn't exist (AA doesn't have members and hence you can't track individuals - rightly so).
  1. You haven't defined "good" and "harm" and so there's no base line against which to test.
  1. Even if you could define "good" and "harm" to your - and every other poster's - satisfaction, they are subjective and therefore impossible to measure in any meaningful or verifiable way.

Please note that it is also impossible to supply evidence that the AA does more harm than good - for exactly the same reasons.

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 13:46

Iva; Go to any escape from aa site.
or 12 step horror stories.

Look at the rate of recovery from alcohol abuse with no treatment.

OP posts:
Portofino · 29/01/2010 13:46

Well if you look at responses on here, several posters have said that it has categorically helped them, or members of their family. Some have said it wasn't really their thing and have stopped by other methods. NOONE has said it has caused them harm. Not scientific maybe, but then neither is the twaddle you linked to.

Again - what is your interest here?

snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:46

OP please share an example of a "12 step horror story" with us.

I'm betting it will be in america (so not relevant to UKAA) and/or involve a vulnerable person who's life would likely have been a "horror story" with or without AA

c'mon, tell us one

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 13:47

Kirkers - the orange crap and the 12 step horror stories are all anecdote and misinterpreted data!

And yes, debate is allowed in AA meetings, a lot of it. That is part of the point of it.

MumofOscar · 29/01/2010 13:47

Thank you for acknowledging me at least kirkers. But you stil haven't answered. Why do you want this opinion? There is no reason for this conversation not to be discussed in aa, but then there is no reason even to discuss it. The people at an AA meeting are AA, so would be a self defeating exercise, no?

MIFLAW · 29/01/2010 13:47

"They do involved children too. It is awful."

What on earth does this actually mean? The only children involved in AA (mainly in the US) are children who have self-identified as alcoholics.

Those who are unsure whether such a thing is possible - especially you, Kirkers, as you love internet research - should look into childhood dipsomania in the UK before pubs had a minimum age for serving.

AccioPinotGrigio · 29/01/2010 13:48

Kirkers - is this about wanting your DP to stop going to his AlAnon meetings? Are you trying to build a case which will "make him see the error of his ways".

I just read your other thread. So this is purely my guess about what is motivating you here. If I am right then I think the answer lies not in seeking to demonise AA and AlAnon but in seeking some sort of couple counselling for the both of you.

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 13:48

Who does aa work for? The people who say it worked for them represent a very small percentage of people who walk into the rooms, although they are told that it is the only way.

OP posts:
snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:49

Yeah and, like Portofino said, why has this thread not been swamped (or even trickled) with people who say AA has caused them harm?? The VAST majority on here have been helped by AA etc

IvaNighSpare · 29/01/2010 13:49

Kirkers- that's not evidence, that's opinion.

SerenityNowAKABleh · 29/01/2010 13:49

I would like you to answer, as asked before by other posters, why you think AA is a cult. I looked at the orange papers website, and as I said before, I wasn't that convinced - it seemed very rambling, chaotic and just had quotes about various cults (moonies, David Koresh etc.) and seemed to assume that people would go "ah yes, AA are a cult. Because they're like the moonies. Some how".

WhoIsAsking · 29/01/2010 13:51

I think kirkers (Sorry theboss - just can't stay away, this thread is like a scab I've got to keep picking at) what you want one of us to say is this:

"I have read all the evidence provided by you. I am a consultant in a hospital and have dealt with the AA on a regular basis. They are an evil cult who are bent on destroying the world. They actively do harm and it's best if they are disbanded."

The problem is, that no one is going to say this to you. You are utterly hellbent on a) not answering anyone's questions, and b) hitting posters' over the head with your "evidence"

You don't want a debate.

snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:51

Who has been told AA is the only way? Who ffs? Sounds like American AA again

OP why are you not responding to any questions????????????????

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 13:53

They are NOT told it is the only way. Not in the UK, at least. They are explicitly told that it is ONE method of tackling drinking, but if you use it, there is only one route within AA, which is to aim for not having a drink THAT DAY.

I have no idea what the rate of recovery without treatment is in the UK, but I suspect that "no treatment" for recovered alcoholics means self-treatment, not "no treatment at all". Alcoholics don't suddenly wake up one day as non-drinkers without some level of introspection and self-evaluation, you know!

snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:53

Bored now OP, thought you might answer some questions but no

yawn