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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to consider aa a dangerous cult?

923 replies

Kirkers · 29/01/2010 03:47

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

OP posts:
MumofOscar · 29/01/2010 13:54

The point isn't that they are told AA is the only way. AA memebers share their experience ie what worked for them. Obviously that would be AA itself.
For example, at an AA meeting i can tell a newcomer that AA worked for me; that i am 8 years sober with the help of AA.

flibertygibet · 29/01/2010 13:54

I think AA/12-step programmes are no more a cult than Weight Watchers or Lighter Life weight loss programmes.

People come into the 'rooms' to find solace, and a safe place to share and face their addictions. It doesn't work for everyone, as some people have other issues that go beyond the drinking/drugs etc..that need to be treated by a therapist.

Those who start going to AA are often in a pretty bad place to begin with. The idea of the meetings is to be with people who have been there and understand. It feels like a cult sometimes in that they repeat a lot of stuff over and over but that's to get those who need to realise that they don't need the booze/drugs/whatever to face their demons.

My dh is 'on the firm' and has been for 25 years. He rarely goes to meetings anymore as he feels he's used it as a bridge to normal living. But he'd be dead now if he hadn't found AA.

IvaNighSpare · 29/01/2010 13:55

"they are told that it is the only way"

never, ever heard that even suggested in meetings. At AlAnon, we were actively discouraged from giving advice or suggesting how to approach a situation. We shared our own positive experiences in the hope that we might inspire others, and grow together in our own unique ways.
Hence "take what you like and leave the rest"

Maybe its a trans-atlantic culture thing but it sounds like, somewhere there has been a MASSIVE interpretation of what I understand to be the ethos of 12 Step groups.

snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:55

AA is much cheaper than weightwatchers/lighter life and doesn't keep trying to sell you stuff!!!

CinnabarRed · 29/01/2010 13:57

"The people who say it worked for them represent a very small percentage of people who walk into the rooms, although they are told that it is the only way."

  1. How do you know that it only worked for a small percentage of people? One more time: there are no reliable figures for AA membership and hence no reliable figures for AA success rates.
  1. Why do you think that they are told that it's the only way? No-one is ever told that it's the only way - just that it's supportive to all and helpful to some.
MIFLAW · 29/01/2010 13:58

"half of aa members are there under coercion"

I think I know what this is getting at.

In the interests of fairness, it might be nice to make it clear that the "coercion" is "go to AA or, AS A DIRECT RESULT OF YOUR BEHAVIOUR WHILE DRUNK, go to prison or an asylum."

Viewed in this light this membership (which you overstate) is not so much coerced as (literally) offered a "get out of jail free" card.

I don't believe in it myself, but I think the language you use is incredibly biased.

GrumpyWhenWoken · 29/01/2010 13:58

My experience is from my exDH who is an alcoholic. He basically swapped going out every night to the pub with going to meetings.

It seemed to me that the attitude was certainly one of drawing a big line under any of his behaviour before. He adopted the attitude that he could do whatever he liked and then as long as he apoligised for it that was ok - cleaning his side of the street he called it. So for him, handing you life over to a force more powerful, meant that he didn't feel responsible for anything any more.

He has stopped drinking though, so you can't say it didn't work for him, although it was to be at the cost of his marriage.

He 'left' his step 8 list out where I could find it and I discovered, whilst 7 months pregnant, all the women he had tried/had affairs with including one of the AA members who used to give him a lift to meetings.

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 14:01

Flibbery: Thanks very much. It seems as if your d other half has taken the best bits of aa and managed to get out before he was inveighalled into being in too much service. This bit is good, and is what I tried to describe to the earlier poster who talked about her sister. It works for some people. Stop. It does not work for everyone, but, people vulnerable enough to go are told that it is the only answer. This is a Big fat lie.

OP posts:
TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 14:01

Kirkers - just read your other thread and understand your issue more. Your issue is not with AA, it is with your DH, who, quite frankly, sounds like an utter loon. It is not AA or Al-Anon making him like that.

You should go to counselling together (Relate) rather than wasting your time trying to blame your husband's behaviour on a blameless and very helpful organisation.

MIFLAW · 29/01/2010 14:02

"Could anybody supply me with evidence that aa does more good than harm?

"The plural of anecdote is not data."

Yes. Google the "treatment" and success rates of alcoholism before 1935 when AA officially came into being.

Find out how people drank themselves and their families out of home, job and food, even through the depression and the prohibition, in a pre-welfare state America (and elsewhere, of course.)

It seems to me that, if, in its entire 75 years, AA has helped even one indivdual avoid even the practical implications of that situation, it has done more harm than good.

And, if you're struggling to find one, then I am that one.

So there's your proof.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 14:02

Kirkers - can't you read?????

NO-ONE IS TOLD IT IS THE ONLY WAY.

If anyone told you that AA says that, then they are lying.

noddyholder · 29/01/2010 14:03

'a big fat lie! Yo sound like my 15 yr old ds be off with ye!

MIFLAW · 29/01/2010 14:03

More good than harm.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 14:04

I quote from the AA website:

"Only you can decide whether you think A.A. is for you. Try to keep an open mind on the subject. If the answer is YES, we will be glad to show you how we stopped drinking ourselves."

I don't see anything that suggests it is the only way in that.

MumofOscar · 29/01/2010 14:04

AFAIK, and i do know a little, nobody is sent to AA as a result of any criminal activity in this country. Drug treatment and testing orders (and obviously for alcohol as well) do exist but state treatment centres as methods of recovery not AA meetings as it would be impossible to confirm that someone had been to an AA meeting.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 14:06

WhoIsAsking - please please please tell me to stay away!!!!

Portofino · 29/01/2010 14:06

Some facts and figures here

Obviously Wiki is not always reliable but the thread links to some of the studies that have been done. Really to summarise, it says that AA is sometimes effective and sometimes not. Pretty much what everyone has been saying all along. It doesn't say it is a cult.

MIFLAW · 29/01/2010 14:07

And again.

No one is told that it is the only answer.

I tell people willingly that it is the only thing that worked for me. Because it is true.

Also, Kirkers, partly because of upstanding citizens like yourself, AA for many people is a last resort. They will do almost anything rather than go to big bad AA. So they arrive knowing that, for them, AA may well be the only way - because they have already tried and failed with all the other ways!

People who find other ways work tend to shut up and get on with their lives rather than slate an organisation they have never tried. It's good advice.

WhoIsAsking · 29/01/2010 14:08

GAH! TheBoss! I can't...

I feel like I have sand in my vagina.

becstarlitsea · 29/01/2010 14:11

Okay, I've read your other thread now, and with reference to that and to GrumpyWhenWoken's post I will say:

Neither AA nor Al-Anon can turn a nasty piece of work into a nice person. If someone is a nasty piece of work they can twist 'program-speak' in a manipulative way (the same way a manipulative person can twist anything). Your DH's behaviour, and GrumpyWhenWoken's exDH's behaviour is not due to AA or Al-Anon - if they were not a kind person before, they'll continue to be a pain but with more recovery jargon in the mix. But they might also recover from alcoholism, which is what AA is for.

But if anyone is reading this who is worried about their drinking, please don't be put off by this thread. Give your local AA group a chance. They will have tea, biscuits and a sense of humour. (And an openness to debate!)

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 14:13

From wiki (thanks Portofino):

"alcoholics who "really tried" to follow the AA program "50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed with Alcoholics Anonymous showed improvement."[2]

There is a study referred to on wiki which paints AA in a more negative light, but the key conclusion is that "coerced attendance" doesn't work and can be detrimental. By which it means forced by courts. Which doesn't happen here. Fairly obvious really, you're not going to get better if you don't want to.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 14:14

WhoIsAsking - I know exactly what you mean!!!!

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 14:14

What i would like is evidence that aa deserves the respect it seems to be given de facto.

Gauntlet.downlay.com

The plural of anecdote is not data.

OP posts:
CarrieHeffernan · 29/01/2010 14:14

Late to this, but fwiw....

Hypnosis, NLP and various other techniques of this nature obviously inform AA's approach. However, I don't think it is a dangerous cult. I think that in order to deal with a powerful addiction / deeply destructive patterns in your life, you often need to be 'converted' to a drastic new way of thinking and lifestyle in order to completely reject your destructive old ways.

People also respond differently to different interventions. Maybe AA isn't for everyone, but for the people I know who have encountered it, it has saved their lives.

Portofino · 29/01/2010 14:15

On another thread OP you talk of going to AA meetings and "have a lot a aa literature which I don't want anymore but am keeping it incase it might be useful to someone else. I would be very happy to send it to you but, of the lot, I would recommend, 'Living Sober'"

Why would you recommend aa literature if you believe that aa does more harm that good?