to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Oh No

Weej; thanks; more of that would be helpful.

I didn't mean much by the term orderly, what I mean is that it would be helpful to hear what the view is of people who come into contact with alcohol abuse as doctor, nurse, whateve.

ROFL - you want the medical opinion of an orderly? Who is medically qualified how exactly? I worked in a care home and have a first aid qualification - does that mean I can have an opinion???

I am a person who has come into contact with alcohol abuse as a relative. As have a lot of posters. So our opinion is just as valid.

Oh and for the recoed, Devendra if youre still about:
"For a lot of people the 12 step programme is so rigid and inflexible that they just can't achieve the goals and 'fail'... failure means kicked out and left unsupported.. madness when you consider that the average person is likely to give up an addiction 6 times before succeeding ( rough estimate)
Failure also means no more contact with your peer support group and is pretty harsh im my opinion.. "

That is complete and utter crap. Nobody is ever kicked out or left unsupported.

I would offer the view that people with direct experience with alcoholism, and combating it or otherwise, have a pretty good idea of what they are talking about.

There are many on this thread.

It's a shame you find AA a 'cult'. It has been benefical to people the world over with the same shared desire - 'to get sober'.

I have a close family relative whose life was nearly destroyed by alcohol. Lived rough, drugs, children taken into care etc. You name it - it happened.

She has now been sober for 20 years with AA.

Now can that be a bad thing?

I agree with TheBoss

My dh might have an opinion, but he isn't living with alcoholism every day, he doesn't see the damage in families they way those in relationships do.

Maybe I have played into your hands by giving his opinion - though it doesn't match yours. But I would listen to the people here who have been there themselves and have seen family members go through it - far more useful long term, I would think.

I am still keen for devendra to say what secondary health services she was talking about earlier and how people are referred, because the answer to that will go a long way towards explaing her views (some of which I have issue with).

I don't even know what an orderly is and I suspect I got the word from the girl guid handbook. Did I mean a porter? What are they now called? What I mean is anyone who works in this field whether pyschiatrist or cook or counsellor or anything. I mean not just doctors and nurses.

Kirkers-I come into contact on a daily basis with alcoholics as part of my job (not willing to say what on the internet). We have two ways of referring people for alcohol help-the minasota model i.e 12 Step/AA and the harm reduction model i.e keeping drinks diaries/harm reduction/gradually cutting down. Both models have a high failure rate (as addicts by their nature are difficult to 'help' and yes alcholics die. However the 12step model has a much higher sucess rate with alcholics than the latter.

Hope that helps

Oh and having re-read this thread it appears that you're the one not open for debate, OP. When you say debate, I take it you actually mean "all agree with me, i speak the truth"? [biscuit}

Oh yeah - one more thing:

YABU

Kirkers, you keep referring to AA's uncorroborated success rate, as if lack of corroboration were evidence of failure.

Of course its success rates are uncorroborated - all meetings are anonymous (due to the social stigma and to encourage people to open up, no other reason) so it's entirely impossible to prove or disprove its success rates. By definition.

Why would a cook be more qualified to have an opinion on this that any of us? An orderly and a porter are the same thing, no? Again, why would they have anything to add beyond what we would?

Anyway, you have the opinion of 3 professionals working in this field now. One who sort of but not totally agrees with you, two don't.

Kirkers

I seem to remember refuting you point by point on another thread on whether AA was a cult.

Instead of answering, you just slunk away. Perhaps you could answer me now?

AA does not provide "treatment" and it is offensive and misleading to say it does.

Most convincingly to my mind, it cannot be a cult when it has a policy not to recruit members and allows people to walk away if they don't want what is on offer.

"Telling people they have a disease is completely unethical" - well, it would be, if both the BMA and the WHO (and the psychologist Jung) did not define and treat alcoholism as an illness.

What I would be most interested to hear is what you personally have against AA that drives you to post repeatedly on an unrelated internet forum. Have you had a bad experience with them yourself?

You will know from your own research, of course, that each group is autonomous, so, in any case, one group is no real indicator of another. This is especially true between countries. American AA, especially, is a very different beast to UK AA, specifically around the level of orthodoxy over what "God" means.

Victoria Scrumtious; Very much appreciate your post. Thank you. Is their any verification? That is interesting. Appreciated and noted.

MIFLAW Good post. You're much more eloquent thna me.

"If it's not a cult, then why not discuss it. The only winner could be the health of the human race."

People are discussing it. Most people seem to disagree with you. I wish my dad had gone to the AA years ago - we suggested it much. He recently ended up sat in his own bodily waste for 2 days til his sister found him and called an ambulance. NOW he has faced up to having a problem.

OP, I really want to now why you are so interested?

What sort of verification would you need. I haven't done a study and published it if that's what you mean. I see what I see and I have no agenda.

Kirkers I see you are going to ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you, but can you just answer my question please? What exactly is your interest in this subject? Are you the author of the publications you mentioned?

Or do you have a more personal interest?

Are you writing a book? Remind me not to buy it.

Kirkers - there is no verification in the orange crap either. The data they quote is just badly interpreted. FI, saying that AA damages because some participants drink more after attending is attributing a cause that may not exist, ie they may have just drunk more even if they hadn't gone to AA. Cause and effect isn't proven in any of the bits that I looked at. Bad bad bad science.

Kirkers I'm going to make a cup of tea now. When i come back i will see whether you have replied to my question which i asked numerous times. If you haven't i will just assume you are a troll and will engage no further in your debate.