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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to consider aa a dangerous cult?

923 replies

Kirkers · 29/01/2010 03:47

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

OP posts:
victoriascrumptious · 29/01/2010 12:47

Kirkers-you sound a bit fanatical yourself.

"I am ready to be attacked by cult members."

Is that your disclaimer for dealing with people who have different opinions from yourself-by writing them all off as 'cult members'?

I'm not an alcoholic but I do know several people who have been through the 12 step. It works if you suspend your disbelief and throw yourself headlong into it-and that's really the key to AA and what makes it 'cultish'.

AA helps many many alcoholics the stuff you are spouting about it helping no one is utter rubbish.

ImSoNotTelling · 29/01/2010 12:48

?

I suppose the children of alcoholics might well have a genetic predisposition to alcolism (an addictive personality) is that's what you mean?

I intend to be very open about the dangers of addiction and how easy it is to slide into it and what to lok out for with my children. I am not a member of AA.

noddyholder · 29/01/2010 12:48

Why don't you live and let live and stop this relentless attack on something that seems to have helped a lot of people here.You don't really want a debate as you only see one side

Tamarto · 29/01/2010 12:49

just because it's in a book doesn't make it any the more true or representative. Again people generally prefer to talk about bad experiences and you'll find them for any subject no matter how worthwhile the subject.

IvaNighSpare · 29/01/2010 12:52

"speeders don't have to admit to powerlessness and belief in a God/Higher Power"

speeders also are not in the grip of a chemical addiction which controls their impulses and compulsions.

"BTW Do any of those Mnetter's who belong to AA also tell their children that they might have and inherited spiritual illness?"

what the hell is a spiritual illness?
Also if this disease is physically inherited, then 12-steppers are probably the best people to have around as AA and other similar groups teach tolerance, acceptance and non-judgemental support above all others.

llareggub · 29/01/2010 12:54

Oi, Kirkers, you haven't responded to my point about the membership statistics being flawed. I posted that the AA does not keep membership records so the stats quoted cannot be true.

Devendra posted earlier about abstinence not working for many people. This may be true, but for my DH being told that he could carry on drinking socially by his alcohol counsellor was red rag to a bull. It gave him just the excuse he needed to continue drinking. Thankfully he now goes to AA and does not drink.

As I said earlier, he isn't brainwashed. But he is happier and healthier. I really hope this thread doesn't put people off seeking help.

noddyholder · 29/01/2010 12:55

I have a 15 yr old son and this has always been something he has grown up with.he has the odd beer at parties but has shown no real signs of 'over-doing' it but obviously he's still young.His addiction is skateboaring and I hope it stays that way but dp has been very honest and we have made him aware of the dangers and the fun.We have a lot of friends at the house and there has always been alcohol around and we just try to keep it 'normal'

Tamarto · 29/01/2010 12:55

kirkers why are you ignoring any point that you can't disagree with, you know the ones where people point out what you think isn't actually the truth of the matter?

llareggub · 29/01/2010 12:56

Actually yes, we will be discussing alcoholism with our children. DH's uncle died from it and my mother drinks too much so I happen to believe that there is some sort of genetic link to addiction.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 12:56

Kirkers - off you pop to go and get an education so that you can critically evaluate what you read and learn to used research resources properly. Let us know when you are done and we'll re-engage in debate with you then.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 12:57

The royal we being used there, obviously! I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else on MN.

Tamarto · 29/01/2010 12:59

' but for my DH being told that he could carry on drinking socially by his alcohol counsellor was red rag to a bull. It gave him just the excuse he needed to continue drinking. Thankfully he now goes to AA and does not drink.'

Same here, he was told by someone he was instructed to see by the court, that abstaining was the worst thing he could do and it was all about moderation and as soon as he moderated what he was drinking all would be fine, he had no ideas about how to do that however!

My DP doesn't go to AA anymore, he went to 2 or 3 meetings and found them helpful but felt no need to rely on them after the gave him the realisation of what he was doing, in a way that no one else had managed. He's been sober for 5 years now.

WhoIsAsking · 29/01/2010 12:59

TheBoss - please tell me to hide this thread.

Is the OP overseas BTW?

becstarlitsea · 29/01/2010 13:00

'might have an inherited spiritual illness' - what on earth are you on about???

When DS is old enough to wonder why I don't drink, I'll explain that I'm an alcoholic and that's why I don't drink. When he's old enough, or curious enough to inquire about the cause of death of various family members I'll explain that they died of alcoholism. Which I don't plan on dying of, hence I don't drink. When he asks if it runs in our family I'll say 'Well, on the face of it, it does seem to rather, doesn't it?'

People in AA don't really talk like that ('an inherited spiritual illness'???) - it's a lot more down to earth - not so much 'inherited spiritual illness' more like 'feck it, we're out of tea bags'

Although you do occasionally get some starry-eyed newcomers who talk like that for a bit - all excited at their discovery of sobriety, spouting 'program-speak' like it's poetry learned by heart. Bless. They're a lot better off doing that than dying in the gutter. And when they've been sober a few years they'll be talking normally again, they're just learning how to live again, which is difficult stuff.

TheBossofMe · 29/01/2010 13:01

WhoIsAsking - I will if you will!

I'm not sure, but I suspect she's talking from a very US POV.

Original poster
Kirkers · 29/01/2010 13:05

If anyone knows a doctor, a nurse, an orderly or an anything in the medical field, I would most like to hear your views.

If it's not a cult, then why not discuss it. The only winner could be the health of the human race. Please criticise me, or any of the books I have recommended, but, in the light of alcohol stats, lets keep it open.

OP posts:
SerenityNowAKABleh · 29/01/2010 13:07

Hm. I think the OP does come across as a bit of a nutter, and having read some of the orange papers, I'm not convinced. It comes across as very sensationalised.

I don't have direct experience of AA, though I believe my Dad went when I was young, and from what I remember before that time, it did help and my parents' marriage improved.

I think part of it is the support - in the UK in particular, it is very difficult to have any social interaction without alcohol. Though, again, not direct expereince, but I've read accounts on MN were teetotallers had drinks forced on them, soft drinks spiked etc. For people who have difficulty controlling themselves around alcohol, it must be a relief to be able to a) hang out with people who've been through what you've been through and b) have a social event where you know alcohol will not be served, at all.

For people who go over the top and all evangelical about it; could be that they have an addictive personality, and they're replacing alcohol with the group. You don't know.

snailfiddler · 29/01/2010 13:07

Kirkers, you are taking the whole "god" thing too literally. The AlAnon meeting I went to had muslims, christians, sikhs, atheist and buddhist members. The powerlessness aspect does NOT mean you are totally powerless over everything and everyone it just means "stop beating yourself up trying to control something that you are currently unable to control and instead focus your energy on how you got here, how you live your life etc"

I really think that membership/recovery figures are misleading as you don't have a membership number (even "membership" seems too strong a word, it was all very casual, turn up, drink tea, chat) and you don't have to provide AA with information about your recovery/non-recovery. How could they know that information?

Sounds like you are believing something that you want to believe

WhoIsAsking · 29/01/2010 13:07

I'm going to do it.

Denile ain't just a river in Egypt and I really think, going from previous posts by the OP, that there is a messy agenda behind this whole thing.

Tamarto · 29/01/2010 13:09

Ah so that's the point of the cult of the AA, to wipe out the population or at least the alcoholics, shame it doesn't always work then

PMSL Why would an orderlys views be any more valid than mine? because they work in a hospital and i don't?

weegiemum · 29/01/2010 13:10

Kirkers - my husband is a GP and I just ran this by him in our normal "lunchtime" chat.

He says AA is good for some, not for others. That some fail on every programme and some succeed. But he has seen results with AA he would never have anticipated in a million years - real hardened alcoholics becoming sober.

So there you go - works for some, not for others.

ktbeau · 29/01/2010 13:11

Why does the OP keep banging on about "coercion" is she in the US?

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE

Sounds a little unhinged

never been to a 12 step thingy but really sceptical of the whole cult thing.

noddyholder · 29/01/2010 13:11

hiding this thread the op def has some weird agenda

Tamarto · 29/01/2010 13:12

weegiemum He's been got at by the cult, omfg what are you going to do.

MumofOscar · 29/01/2010 13:13

....Where to start?!

I'm actually interested to know OP, exactly what is your interest in this thread? Apologies if thats already been covered. Are you the author of any of the publications you mention? Or an alcoholic looking for answers? Or what?

I think all of my opinions have already been made by numerous other posters but i will make them again.

"It is unquestionably a cult"
So says google. That font of all knowledge yeah? It must be true if google says so?

I ahevn't read your orange papers or 12 step horror stories as i really don't need to. People will always have 'horror stories'. Holidays, NHS, houses, employment, retail. You can find horror stories about any subject.

AA is not a cult. There is no enforced membership; you do not have to pay (other than a small volentary donation; and even the steps are not forced. You are encouraged to follow the steps, not forced.

And I, among many many others, would not be here without it. For the record, I haven't been to a meeting for a few years now. But i know I could go tonight if i wanted and would be welcome.

HTH