to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Tamarto said "Disclaimer - Not a member of AA or Alanon or any other 12 step program (usnless you count the twelve steps of eating chocolate )"

Surely there are only 3 steps:

1. buy chocolate (or have chocolate given to you)
2. Open chocolate
3. eat chocolate.

I have no opinion one way or the other on AA, but am impressed that Kirkers has posted this and is expecting instantaneous responses to hundreds of pages of internet drivel after only 5 minutes.

(not that I am reading it)

For smoking used a combo of allen carr and zyban - a drug which completely took the cravings away. So allen carr dealth with the mindset and made me realise that what I was doing was ludicrous, with no positive benefits, while the drug handled the physical side.

With alcohol my support network was mumsnet, it was about a month of posting every night and checking in and getting support (and praise ) that did it.

I believe it is "done" - something in your mind changes to make it "done" - and that is the bit I got from allen. A way to see an addiction for what it really is, and how to recognise the voice at the back of your mind trying to talk you into indulging and tell it to shut up, because it is trying to trick you into doing something you don't want to really do, to feed the addiction.

Man I love allen carr

weegie mum, yes but it has to be repeated X4 alway, that is the cult bit. tut tut

Hi Kirkers - can you elaborate on your "experience". I know many people who's lives have been saved by AA. Have you ever actually been to a meeting? Many of them are open meetings and anyone can go? In what way is this a cult - members fund the meetings themselves and many who stop going relapse and die from their disease.

Do we all agree that death by alcohol statistics just jumped?
Do we want a debate about this?
Do we want to know why one organisation with an uncorroborated success rate is above criticism?
I think debate is healthy.

I know it's not as easy as 'just stopping' I had an amphetamine addiction too - what I was trying to say was that you need to want to stop.

Debate is good but blanket slating of something that saves many is dangerous.Addiction is a horrific disease and whatever gets you through should be applauded.i have not read the 'orange' stuff in fact have never heard of it but some of the steps can be applied to any situation in life and are really helpful esp living in teh day x

Debate is indeed healthy but labelling a fellowship which has helped many people a "Dangerous Cult" is not healthy debate IMO

What TheBossofMe said - "AA isn't a rehab centre anyway"
Why the attck on AA? They are not making megabucks from people. Its not AAs fault that rehab centres use their 12 step program.

I went to AlAnon meetings for about a year and there was NO PRESSURE to attend (doesn't sound like a cult) in fact I learnt NOT to evangelise and to recognise that people who may benefit from AlAnon may or may not come to it in their own way if they need it and that is THEIR BUSINESS. The total opposite of what I understand a cult to be!!

Sounds like the OP has a hidden agenda here.

Why would the OP want to pay people ffs?

I may or may not look at the orange papers but it sounds like it is a personal opinion rather than research/evidence

I want to echo what TheBoss said earlier about not taking the 12 steps at face value.

On the issue of powerlessness. On one level we are all powerless, why is acknowledging that so terrifying? I think you do need to approach the 12 steps with your brain engaged. There is much more to be taken from it than a literal interpretation of the words. Sheesh.

It helps the same percentage as give up naturally. It harms a lot of people. See 12 step horror stories.

If 95% of members have gone aways in a year - well if AA is a cult it is not a very good cult to lose 95% of its members, and 81% in the first three months!

The whole idea of a cult is to retain members and quickly so that you can continue to brain wash them, therefore part of the set up of AA is not going right if they are losing so many members in the early stages.

I have not got a problem with drinking and nore have any family members - I do have some knowlegde though of AA from other sources

It is NOT a cult fgs its voluntary free and has quite basic principles.If you don't like it don't go!

In the US, many people are coerced. Which does, of course, miss the point, and undermine the percentage who could benefit.

"coolma... the thing is that poople who drink and take drugs in a harmful way are usually damaged in some way, childhood sexual abuse is top of the list but usually any sort of childhood trauma is present in MOST people who present to secondary health services for help with addiction.... so its NEVER as easy as just stopping or.. people use acohol and drugs to self medicate from uncomfortable emotions and take that away and you HAVE to put other coping mechanisms in place.."

devendra please can you clarify what sort of secondary health services you mean, and how people are referred?

AA is not a cult because...

you can leave anytime and come back if you want, or not if you don't (I haven't been to a meeting for years, but if I wanted to go to a meeting this evening I'd be welcome there)

you don't have to subscribe to any particular religion (the 'God' in the steps is the 'God of your own understanding' which can be Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, a lamp post, or a belief in human goodness, or whatever. Plenty of atheists work the steps just fine.)

you don't have to pay. the pot is passed around for contributions every meeting to pay towards the room rent, tea, coffee and biscuits, but no-one is co-erced to contribute, and you can put in as little as you want. £1 is average, but there is no obligation to contribute

there is/was no individual, or small group of individuals, getting rich due to having founded AA. On the contrary, Bill W was far from rich. Some people might get rich from founding treatment centres, rehabs etc but they are not part of AA.

all local groups are self-governing - they send a GSR to regional meetings etc. but nobody tells each group what to believe or say at meetings. If someone wants their local meeting to change in some way, they suggest it, there's a group conscience (a vote in AA speak!) within the local meeting and the group goes with the majority view.

and so many other reasons.

People facing the admission that they are alcoholics are frightened, confused, defensive and occasionally paranoid. The idea that AA is a cult that wants to convert them fits nicely into that mindset. Years ago I sponsored a woman who left a message on my answerphone saying that she'd read a book about how AA was a cult and so she didn't want a lift to the meeting this week. So I didn't drop by - I don't believe in frogmarching people into meetings. Next time she called it was a long drunken rant into my answerphone. I heard from another AA member that he'd seen her in hospital after a suicide attempt - she'd asked to see someone from AA but then sent him away. I went to the hospital but she'd gone already. I suspect she's dead. It makes me so sad.

I don't go to meetings any more, but I got sober in AA and am grateful to the program and the people I met there for my recovery.

Se 12 step horror stories, ffs you can google a bad side about anything on the net.

NHS life saving surgery = bad
Vegtables = bad
TV = bad
Internet = bad
Excersize = bad

Human nature means people are far more inclined to write about a bad experience complain etc, it doesn't mean that there isn't 10000s of other people who had great experiences but haven't bothered to bang on about it online.

Just marking my place. Gonna read this thread when i've got a bit more time later and comment then.

Kirkers in the UK people who get caught speeding can be told that their fine will be waived if they go to a special road awareness thing with the police. That is coercion in the same way. It isn't a bad thing.

[email protected]

email and find out?

Blimey, so many thoughts, so little time.....

Firstly, for what it's worth, I feel the opinions of the OP and the authors of the "research" she quotes are treading on dangerous ground.
I was raised by an alcoholic who made our lives hell and died early without ever addressing their addiction. I took myself to Al-Anon to try and deal with the effects of such a childhood and it was the people at these groups that supported me and gave me the empathy and encouragement I craved. To me, that was the true "magic" of 12 step groups. The 12 steps were never cited as a strict set of rules, just a set of guidelines that one-by-one address the issues that recovery throws up. The first step of admitting powerlessness is key as it is the disease of alcoholism that is controlling the alcoholic not vice-versa.
The Higher Power is anything you want it to be, an inner conviction, a supportive friend, God, The Universe, whatever you choose to call upon for help.
What really scares me about the "facts" presented in the orangepapers etc are that they appear to prey upon the vulnerabilities of the addicts who, already deep in denial, are often just looking for yet another excuse not to try and recover from the disease.
Alcoholism is a multi-facted, multi-levelled, insidious and incurable disease (hence those who refer to themselves as "in recovery" not "recovered" - a relapse is just one drink away to so many)and cannot be quantified by statistics gleaned from "who knows where?". One person's alchoholic is another one's "just a heavy drinker".
I'm not suggesting for one minute that AA is the answer for everyone, after all, how many diseases have a variety of treatments that have to be trialled and tested before the individuals illness goes into recession? And that's just the lucky ones.....Does that necessarily make the unsuccessful treatment 'evil'?

becstar you sound like my dp Well done x

Tomarto; 12 step horror stories is the name of a book that I am bringing to your attention, not a random Google.

ImSo: speeders don't have to admit to powerlessness and belief in a God/Higher Power. Hence the Supreme Court putting an end to it because of First Amendment problems.

BTW Do any of those Mnetter's who belong to AA also tell their children that they might have and inherited spiritual illness?

Jesus.