to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

It's ironic that the only poster(s) on this thread disposing characteristics of brain-washing are those who are anti AA.

So to sum up, Run and donewithit want us to know that there is aprblem with court mandated attendence and unsavoury characters in at AA meetings.

We've seen links that show that NA (Narcotics anonymous) holds meetings outside in Florida and they use sand from the childrens' sand pit to extinguish their cigarettes.

We've also seen a link to an horrific case where a mother introduced AA members to her daughter in the US who raped her. Strangely enough the only report of that case is from a paper in the Philipines. Just saying.

AA in the UK does not target or encourage minors. Miflaw and other current and active UK members has said that they have never seen a child above toddler age at a meeting, nor heard of one.

Have we done now? Can I get on with my busy, now sober thanks to AA, life instead arguing with voices in a machine.

Voices with a very strange agenda.

displaying

ditto helpmenow -

Thank you run and donewithit, you have now rasied our awareness of these issues. You work is done.

I have to agree that I think that there is something more going on here than merely 'raising awareness'. It's definately fishy.

A few pages back run 'welcomes' silent to this thread where they can find support etc etc. I was not aware that this had turned into a support thread for people disenchanted with AA. Aren't there enough of those sites? Why not set one up?

Sorry 'your' work is done

BTW anyone who feels they might need AA really shouldn't be put off by this thread. The primary purpose of AA is to help the suffering alcoholic, if you think you have a problem with alcohol you are always welcome.

You could walk into any meeting and say any of the things we've read on this thread and you wouldn't be asked to leave. You would be listened to without interruption and after the meeting if you hang around you can further discuss your concerns.

You could say 'I hate AA', give reasons and still be welcomed back.

I was 13 stepped by an oldtimer in aa with over 20 years. He also offered me money for sex. He is over 25 years older than me. I rang a senior woman in AA and she came straight round to my house and told me I was not to mention it in meetings because it might put off a newcomer. She also said that she should have warned me about him. I was told to 'look to my own part in it'. I didn't tell dh because he would have gone mental. I mentioned it on an online AA forum and again I was told to look to 'my part in it'. He told me, later, that AA used to be a good place to 'pick up a shag' (his exact words).

I went to 8 different AA meetings because I was told to go to lots of different meetings. I was put under great pressure to get a sponsor, work the steps and go to lots of meetings. I did not do the steps or get a sponsor because I felt very uncomfortable about telling my deepest secrets to a stranger. I am pleased I did not because if I see any of them now (since I left) they completely blank me. I was also put under pressure to tell my doctor and my dentist (why dentist?) that I was an alcoholic. I didn't do this because I thought it might affect my future career and future life insurance.

I would certainly not have dared to make any criticism of AA in any way at all at a meeting. Not with the whole room telling everyone how it had saved their lives. No way.

I noticed many suicides, not in my groups but reports of them from other groups. What was surprising was how many were by people who were sober in AA. It was taken as proof that they did not work a strong enough program. I don't mind pming someone the last group I heard this, in case I am not believed on this anonymous forum.

Didn't see any kids at all in any of the 8 groups but went to one NA meeting out of curiousity and there were lots of kids and babies there.

I sort of cured myself by doing the 1st step backwards. Went for lots of walks telling myself that i was not powerless, especially when near shops that sold alcohol.

I found the fact that I was told that I would have to be in AA forever incredibly depressing.

JJ7000

Really sorry to hear that those things happened to you - those people sound horrible.

I am just grateful that I have not seen any of what you describe.

Glad you are well and happy now, however you got there.

jj - what a bunch of fuckers! - no way would i have gone back if i had met that sort of carry on!

the thing i find about the sort of men who like to pay for sex is that they will try it anywhere, its happened to women in the work place for many many years, actresses call it 'the casting couch', we call it haressment and deal with it like adults, i cant understand why you didnt tell your dh, mine would have wanted to know!

i still, after a year do not have a sponsor and im in no hurry to get one - i use AA as a tool to sobriety, not a 'way of life', i couldnt do that because since i became sober i have such a huge, busy way of life i can only give AA about 90 minutes of my time each week!

I think that cults try to step people leaving. In AA, you can just not go to any more meetings. That's it. I got two phonecalls asking if I was going to meetings and that was it. No pressure and I don't really see how I could have been put under any pressure really. Because of the fact that I didn't do the steps and didn't get a sponsor and didn't do coffees or anything (I did lots of clearing chairs and washing up) I did give a lot of people a lot of lifts to meetings ( a few had lost their licences) to do some sort of 'service' and I was a bit surprised to find that on the very rare occasions that I see one of them in a shop or something they completely ignore me.

Ironically, the only person who has ever spoken to me since I left (but I go an occasional meeting about once a year when I am travelling and staying in a hotel) was the man who 13 stepped me. We had a really calm talk and I said that he should not have done what he did because he held a senior position in AA and it was an unethical use of his position of trust. His reply was that I was not a real alcoholic.

I didn't go to a woman only meeting because I have none near me (and I travelled quite a radius) but I can well imagine that they would have a very different, and possibly more open, feel. I met some really nice people who clearly give a great deal of their free time to AA. I don't really mind that they 'dropped' me from their social outings etc after I left because I didn't go there to make friends, just felt a bit, well, dropped.

As for money, I was told that the price of one's usual drink was a guide line so I used to put £2 in the hat. I don't know the accounts of any of my groups but in one of the al-anon groups, members were told to put LESS money in because they had a surplus and there was some sort of rule against having a surplus. Don't ask me how that works but in at least one group members were told to give LESS.

NO, most of them were really nice. What bothered me about that bloke was that I can imagine that some women/girls in AA might be totally brassic. Dh would have gone totally totally totally mental and it was honestly not worth the hassle. If they think I am not alcoholic then they don't have a role to socialise with me. The blokes I spoke to there before and after were really friendly in an appropriate way. I talked to one of them about my doubts and he said that I should try to stop drinking for three months and then have another think about it, which I eventually did. He didn't rape me, btw, I don't want to give that impression. I gave him a lift and he tried to stick his disgusting smoker's tongue down my throat. I got out of the car and when he got out of his side I jumped back in and drove off. He was one of the few who I didn't ever hear doing a main 'share' so I don't really know his back story.

jj - im sorry it didnt work out for you but very glad you are doing so well!

ime, some of the 'oldtimers' seem almost to have forgotten what it is like in the initial stages of sobriety, i have been told by one obnoxious git that im not a real alkie as i have managed a straight year without one slip up! , what i do is take from the meetings the parts that help me and just leave the rest - you are right about womens meetings too, they do have a different 'feel', our issues are all fairly similar ie, caring for young famillies, taking care of our households, the pressure of working while drinking etc. i think the thing to remember is that when joining any group there will be people we dislike and do not agree with!

i have been 13th stepped, by an older guy, tbf, it was a very gentle 13 step in that he wrote me a poem, sent me a love song and declared undying love for me - he is a sad person in the old sense of the word, lonely, without many social graces and quite a sad figure - i let him down as gently and kindly as i could - had he carried on, i do know that had i told one of the other men that they would have set him straight!

And if I had followed the rule about putting the price of my usual drink into the hat I should have put in £5.75!

About half of the group members as a rule had come to AA from 12 step rehab and had done the first three steps there. They were told to go to meetings as aftercare to keep their sobriety. I could see that those people really benefitted.

Remember I am talking about a lot (8) groups and basically one bad apple.

That's funny because the ones that said things that I found useful were the ones who only had been there for about a year, rather than the old timers.

My point here is that I would not have dared to say a single syllable against any part of AA in a meeting and even outside meetings found it was not on. One of the groups used to go for a meal afterwards, which was quite fun, but still any deviation from what the BB says was (subtly, but effectively) not allowed.

My advice to anyone reading this and thinking of going to AA would be not to say anything at all for a few months, just listen and then decide if it is for you. And don't trust someone just because they have been there for 20 years and seem to be treated as an elder statesman.

"And don't trust someone just because they have been there for 20 years and seem to be treated as an elder statesman" - definitely agree with that. Being good at doing something in no way guarantees that you will be good at teaching it to others ...

jj - im pretty self-confident and in all honesty, i will say if i dont agree with something, in or out of AA - i believe that everything has to evolve and adjust over time, AA should be no different!, i think thats why we now have 'a god of our understanding' rather than the old way of just using the word 'God' - as a quiet believer that suits me fine, i could never accept a sort of 'fire and brimstone' retoric!

And I would advise anyone reading this to go to a women only meeting if you can. This is not just because of 13 stepping (which I think is probably rare in that very VERY few men do it, but the ones that do probably do it again and again, or when they think they can). I found that the men could be quite competitive about how bad they were when they were drinking and the women tended to be more reflective and less sensational.

I have been to 80+ meetings and I never saw any violence or anyone drunk (if they were drunk, they weren't drunk enough for me to notice), not once.

Some people had been to prison for having accidents when driving drunk but they were there of their own accord, not because they had to go for their probation or anything.

I also didn't see anyone having their 'chit' being signed and I am sure I would have noticed if they had. I am positive about that. I didn't speak much and I tried to notice everything.

In the one NA meeting I went two of the people there, who were young mothers with their babies, were accompanied by what I took to be their social workers but I am not qualified to speak about NA because I only went to one meeting.

altinkum - im so sorry to read your family history!

alcholism seems to me to be a very complex illness - fwiw, i have had no real trauma etc, very normal background and up bringing, i have just simply over done it and found myself dependent.

There are many people who read this thread that dont post.
Just because some of the posters feel they do not need to know about the
dangers in AA, does not mean there are not others that read this thread would find it very useful. Already it seems many people have expressed their concern about AA on this thread.Yes Mumset is a supportive blog.

run - would you also agree then that just as there are problems within AA, (which we have discussed this morning in a very rational way!)that there are also some very supportive, kind and wonderful people who wish others no harm? or is that not part of your agenda?

They were not 'horrible people' or 'a bunch of fuckers'.
When I first went loads of women (no men) gave me their phone numbers and gave me a big book (free) and told me that I could call them any time that I wanted to. I did ring one and she told me to read a particular page of the bb, but I had already read the whole thing. But, she was ready to be on the end of the phone, like a personal Samaritan, as were the others.

We used to have a really good laugh when we went out for a pizza after one of the meetings, even if I found the meetings themselves a bit depressing.

www.healtalk.com/public/big-book-online.shtml

You must be reading a different thread to me, run123

tbh boss, i think run123 is not quite with us at all!