to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/jul/05/gerardseenan

Copy and paste this article if you will.

"It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed to anonymity and will not be drawn on any aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must be tackled at a national level." But nothing was done. Nothing at all.

"According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper, within AA "there is a small minority of men and women who operate with sick but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential members"."
Secret memo. No words to the press. No action taken

"It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of framing guidance to prevent further abuse."
*Sounds like there was a cover up. There were no framing of guidlines to prevent abuse"

This is one article pertaining to abuse. Just one. There are others. Yet AA did nothing and still does nothing. Victims should keep going back to the AA organization for help or to file a report when they don't respond and do nothing? It's been going on for years. Bill Wilson, AA's great founder 13 stepped new comer women in the beginning. He used their vulnerability for fullfill his own sexual needs. Seems he taught others to do it also. The public seem more aware than you. Search "alcoholics anonymous" and "pick up girls". Read the jabber about how it is such a great place to pick up vulnerable women.

There have been multiple letters about crime issues in the progam. Personal and tragic claims. Claims from groups of people that came together to file a complaint. Sorry I cannot share all of that pertinent information with you here and now. They are worried more about their personal physical safety than their status as an alcoholic.

The information is out there if you care but you (MIFLAW) don't.

Jonirules- I thought I made it clear that because this is a parenting forum and this impacts parents and minors it is an appropiate place to discuss these issues. The objective is to bring awareness to parents about the real dangers so they can make an informed about if they go or not-and if they go to be very,very,careful and not to give your # out,tell people where you live,
have your children go with you to meetings etc.

Many people with addictions are parents are they not?
Maybe if the mother of the little girl in England who was raped by multiple
AA meembers realized the dangers she would of been more careful and diligent in protecting her daughter.

Joni

I am pretty much anti aa. I try to raise awareness at all levels (not just in forums). AA cult and the tendencies are the topic of this thread, here at mumsnet. So I happen to be here also. AA supporters have instigated this debate as well as I have. Maybe others, that were drawn here because of the threads own title, might be reading. Maybe they don't want to post. Either way, they have heard both sides. I, having been victimized as a direct result of being an AA member, will keep on with this issue here and in other arenas. I hope to expose some of the darkness in AA that guru members and corporate (yes, I said corporate...inside joke sort of) try to paint with a silver lining.

Also the police and the media tend to look the other way as well.
It seems politically incorrect to say anything negative about Alcoholics Anonymous. AA actually has a policy of writing letters to the press every year requesting not to expose the AA members in the press.

Police have been known not to put the names of AA members in police reports to protect them or right a report at all when they realize it is a AA member.

I find the whole thing about alcoholism very odd. Why the secrecy? Who's in charge? What are the treatment options? Is it really only AA and the 12 steps? I know that there are chemical treatments which are said to be very effective. Why are they not used? Most addictions mean you have to stand and be counted. What is so very different about booze? If you have arrived at AA, surely someone has noticed that you are not functioning well in your life and other people are suffering because of your behaviour? Who updates the 'rules'? Is anything new introduced? It would seem like a random bunch of nameless people meeting in secret and doing exactly as they please, unable to talk about what happened behind closed doors. Sounds very very peculiar to me.

It may suit some people to be 'members' of this secret society, but I can well understand that it is not for everyone.

Who runs AA? Is it a charity? Can anyone set up a group anywhere they like? What is for sale? What if AA is wrong?

silent,

There are no updates on rules. The step are 75 years old the traditions are about 65 years old. Neither has ever been changed besides a few different words. Laws are changed all of the time pertaining for vast reasons. The US constitutions have ammendments for various reasons. But not the traditions or steps. Not even after the influx of of members going in and out of the doors over the years. Not even after milestones in psycholigical and medical findings.

AA is ultimately run by the GSO of different areas. It is secretly run by corporate entities. It's all about the money really. It seems to always be about money.

Your funny silent but that is a good question..Actually, what is for sale is your life. You can get it back in AA, or so they claim. They also claim you can't do it alone. But you might lose your mind and start protecting the AA cult at any costs.

I don't know about starting groups wherever you like and how it is done. But, groups get out of countrol. Search Midtown group and alcoholics anonymous for an example of this. Seriously sad stuff though. This happened in the states.

now i know you are absoluty bonkers!

fwiw, just for anyone out there with any semblance of a brain i will say this

i am a 'member' of AA, i have been going to the meetings for a year, in the area where i live i have been part of a group of women who have set up a womens AA meeting - we can do so, we are free to do and im quite proud of our achievement

during my time in AA i have

NEVER

BEEN ASKED FOR MY SURNAME

MY ADDRESS

MY BIRTH DETAILS

MY PASSPORT NUMBER

MY DRIVERS LICENCE

MY NATIONAL INSURANCE NUMBER

MY TAX DETAILS

MY BANK ACCOUNT NUMBER

without those details i really cannot see how a cult could function!

everytime i go to meeting, meetings i choose to go to, i have never been told to attend or coerced against my will, which is held in a christian church of england parish hall, i happliy part with about £1.50, i do know that the rent for the said room is £7 per day, as a group we have to pay for that, if i want to buy a big book i think the going rate is 10 quid and we pay for a cup of tea and a biscuit - i have never seen any children at the meeting!, i have met a few people that i dont like or trust, i have met a few people who are the absolute salt of the earth - i have met people in business i dont like or trust, i have met people in many different walks of life i dont like or trust but being an adult i can make up my mind myself! - as to the secrecy oh for heavens sake - tonight, if you wish you can walk into any meeting and sit down and listen, anyone can do that, you arnt tested at the door to make sure you are really an alcoholic, your liver function test result does not need to be used as a door pass, you dont need to roll up your trouser leg and put a peg on your nipple - just walk in and sit down!, you dont have to speak, you dont have to use your real name, you can just sit and listen, if you decide its not for you, you can then leave the meeting and never ever ever go back!

I have to say I think it is a bit bonkers of the OP that she won't let anyone speak "for" AA, apparently this is a thread only for people who are against it and want to slag it off! I have already said earlier in the thread that I am a bit about AA, however in the interest of free speech I think it is only fair that people should be able to put forward opposing viewpoints.

realhousewife - i have reservations about AA, of course its not the be all and end all and of course there are parts of it that are old fashioned and out dated and like any organisation it attracks its share of nutters, weirdos and sexual preditors.

i too am spectical about the 12 step programme when it is lauded as the 'only way' and the 'only treatment' - what we do have to remember is that if you want professional help for addiction then you have to pay for it in the private sector or try and secure funding on the NHS, in the meantime AA is a good starting point on the path to recovery, even if you dont want to follow the 12 steps, at the very least you will find fellow sufferers willing to be a listening ear.

silent, you seem to be labouring under the illusion that AA is the only method available for overcoming alcoholism.

It's not.

My alcoholic ex has been offered a variety of help and support from a variety of sources. She's been in NHS hospitals to detox as a straight medical procedure to at least get her from "so drunk she's poisoning herself" to "no more alcohol in her bloodstream" without having seizures. She's had a lot of support from her GP as well.

She's been referred to the Community Drug & Alcohol Team that is wholly funded by the local health authority and offers combined pharmaceutical support as well as counselling.

She's spent a lot of time at Hertsreach, a drug and alcohol charity that is partly funded by Turning Point and partly by the local council. That offers a wide variety of one-on-one and group counselling and other support.

After she got done for drink-driving she was ordered to attend an alcohol abuse course but I don't know where that is.

There was another charitable place she went to for a while that offered one-on-one counselling but I forget the name of that one. There may well be other places she's been to that she hasn't told me about.

And, finally, there's AA. I think she goes there too.

Silent-it appears that anyone can start a meeting and collect the money from it.AA has had a hard time with people running off with the money as well that is collected from the meetings.

I have been told that even if an AA group is formed for a hidden agenda and do illegal activities,there is nothing they will do. They can remove the name of the group from their website and literature-but this very rare indeed.They just say call the police-even when they know the police are not doing anything about it in some cases.

They just pass the buck and take no responsibility.

Many people are unaware of the alternatives and also many that do offer help that does not make it obvious they are 12 step either are 12 step or they send you to AA as aftercare.Because it is free it takes pressure off the government to provide continuing aftercare.

I am glad you pointed out the different programs,because one of the problems are that people do not realize it and AA is the only way.

For the record I am not the original OP Kirkers. I was interested in this topic and did a search on the site-that is how I found the ' is AA a dangerous cult' thread.I am a "Mum" too! Reading through the older thread was very helpful
to me.I appreciate that Mumset has such varied topics that impacts parents.
Also I have found some like-minded posters on the thread that are supportive. Thank you MN!

According to the website someone posted in January, about 15 pages back - Green Paper or something? - the "5% success rate" is just a misinterpreted statistic by the chap who wrote the Orange Papers. Whoever said (run123 I think?) that it was from AA's own figures would appear to have made that up, as I don't think AA, or UKAA at least, have any figures - at least I'd challenge you to find them anywhere, other than on those dodgy websites that you've linked so many times they obviously must be true.

There are lots of references to all the money AA meetings make. If we assume there are, what, 30 people at a big one? (30 sounds like one hell of a lot of people to drop in to one place on any given evening, I bet some are more like half a dozen.) They are invited to contribute a pound or so, but not everybody pays; let's average it out at a pound a head ie 30 quid. By the time the organiser has paid for the room hire plus teas and biscuits for 30 people, how much money is there left to fuel the cult? A whole tenner? Twice a week? What do they do with all that money, I think we should be told!

Disclaimer: have not been to AA or AlAnon as am not problem drinker, nor, to my knowledge, are any close relatives. Opinions and calculations based purely on reading entire thread, which was nearly enough to drive a Saint to drink, plus dipping into AA's own site. I want a medal please.

stinkin-thinkin.com/neverending-thread/follow-the-money/

Here you can find some stats on follow the money in AA

AA does have its own stats.

This is a UK as well as a US issue.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shoalhavenaa.com.au%2Fattachments%2Fdownload%2F24%2FATTACHMENT_TO_TOPIC_002-PREDATORS.doc.pdf&rct=j&q=reason%20for%20topic%20and%20additional%20background%20information%20predators&ei=rNfjTdO_N8O5tgeN2LG2Bw&usg=AFQjCNHQjS8UpaFonoN_W1CFbwFRafRb3A

Erm - read your own link. It makes it perfectly clear that AA in the UK in fact have policies and procedures and are putting safeguards in place to protect people from the very small risk of sexual predators preying on the vulnerable in groups.

So doesn't that completely prove that no sweeping under the carpet is going on and that AA are in fact asking addressing the problem????

So I'm really not sure what your point is anymore?

That people are at risk in any group because there is no such thing as a completely safe environment (we know that even CRB checks don't create that from sad experience)? Yes, everyone on this thread has already acknowledged that - the same as in a swim team, judo group, ballet class etc.

That 12-step isn't only one way to deal with an abuse problem? Again, acknowledged by everyone on the thead

That AA has a low success rate? Yes, again acknowledged, and I challenge you to find me an alcohol abuse programme that has a high success rate.

That compulsory mandating isn't necessarily good? Doesn't really happen in the UK, so not relevant

That AA is making money? Proof of this in the UK has not been forthcoming

So what is your point exactly???? Other than to lecture your ignorant cousins over the pond who might be too dumb to understand the concept of risk??????

www.stabroeknews.com/2011/opinion/editorial/06/16/alcohol-abuse/

UK study from AA that people stopped drinking after being told by the doctor
it was bad for their health vs those that went to AA.

So people can be empowered and quit on their own if they choose !

Of course some people can! And some people can't, and for them AA can be one of many ways to recovery.

Why are you finding that so difficult to understand?

AA in the UK have talked about it-nothing is being done-but talk.
Also it states it IS a problem-unlike many on the board will admit.

In the UK if you are on probation you are asked to go to AA as well.

I dont think you are really trying to get my points-I have explained myself, why I want people to be aware of the dangers.

Guidelines and protocols have been issued and adopted (including how to instigate criminal investigations by police in the case of reported abuse) by AA in the UK so its an outright lie to say that nothing is being done.

No, in the UK, if you are on propbation for drink related crimes, you are asked to attend an alcohol abuse programme. We have many many many of those in the UK, of which AA is only one. Probably not even the most common one.

And show me anyone on this thread, anyone at all, who said that abuse never happens in the UK AA.

I think everyone is aware, anyone with a brain is aware that risk is everywhere. So what????

Well we agree than that abuse DOES happen in UK AA.
More needs to be done to prevent it. One is awareness!

I think you will find that us dumb Brits are pretty aware of abuse happening in all walks of life. Unfortunately