to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Just spat my tea out miflaw!

This thread would be hilarious if it wasn't so sick.

Have reported some of the posters anyway.

MIFLAW

?Because we don't want some self-important, power-hungry prick telling us what to do!? How can a person or organization that advocates and ensure safety be labeled as a ?self-important, power-hungry prick??

The ?key strength? of your movement (AA?s movement) is not ?that we are all equals and no one is in charge?, it is that one alcoholic can help another alcoholic.

?I have never seen or even heard of a minor attending on this basis so the kids are safe for now?. Kids (minors) are safe because you personally have never seen a minor attend a meeting? Are you sure minors are safe because YOU haven?t seen them at the meetings you attend?

?I reckon I could spot a fraud a mile off?. So since you can spot fraud a mile off, everyone else should be able to master these same super qualities. Even newcomer alcoholics that are distraught, broken, are willing to do what it takes and are ?as hopeless as Bill was??

?Fundamentally reorganize?? Not everything. Make changes about some things in an imperfect program, to help people that cannot spot fraud and predators a mile off like you can.

?Individual responsibility? is important. So is a group and organizational responsibility.

It seems to me that you don?t care at all if people get hurt or how they get hurt. That nothing is more important than the ?movement?. Recovery of groups should not in any way be more important than individual and personal safety. Even if the founding principles of AA stay intact, you want nothing to do with it. That?s being selfish.

Of course AA and NA are CULTS. By definition they easily qualify and like most cults are in complete denial of this obvious fact.What qualifies them as dangerous is their fervent indoctrination and brainwashing of the vulnerable to accept the delusion of being powerless.Like other cults,there is hope as long as one "keeps coming back".Yes, keep coming back to perform the daily rituals of proclaiming that they are powerless addicts, even after decades of not using.

Like other cults,if one were to stray from "THE PATH" they would be in grave danger of falling victim to their powerless belief system. Even one moderate weak moment could now carry the tremendous weight of total failure.The overwelming prospect of having to start completely over,can promote thoughts of hopelessness,self condemnation and destruction.
This is the classic signature of a dangerous cult.
"Keep coming back or you will be lost and/or DIE".

What changes would you make donewithit? Actual steps you would take.

And another one pops up with the same phrasing. Don't make me laugh, please. I'm recovering from an op and wouldnt want to split my stitches.

And try and think of more original names! Befree donewithit run123 I mean, come on.

TheBossofMe: "Stanton and trimpey both had an issue with court mandated aa, not aa per se. So it's disingenuous to suggest that they support your position". Umm, that is not true. I can direct you to links where they do support and share my pov. I will if you would like. I mean, if you will read it and it might make a difference. Will it? BTW, they are not anonymous so they won't mind at all if I share a link or quote them.

"Funny how none of the critics on this thread crosspost" Some have, but you must have overlooked it. Why should they? It seems apparent that they share the same views, no reason to really.

MIFLAW
Yes. I feel safe on a park bench for the most part. I don't feel to safe in a pub, but that is because I am not taught to let down my defenses and trust others "and stick with winners" (the sober people I know nothing about), as I am taught when I walk into a meeting.

I don't understand, Alanon is for people related to or living with Alcoholics not for alcoholics themselves. Why would your dh say he was powerless over alcohol and then attend alanon?

donewithit - are you drunk?

"The ?key strength? of your movement (AA?s movement) is not ?that we are all equals and no one is in charge?, it is that one alcoholic can help another alcoholic."

THANK you, a thousand times THANK you for explaining to me how AA works. In nearly 10 years I have not come close to understanding it and yet today, for the first time, thanks to you, an outsider, I see it how it really is.

Sadly, I feel I have to disagree with you. One alcoholic can only help another alcoholic because they come together on a basis of equality. That's why, even though 12-step treatment centres are staffed by recovering alcoholics, they still base their recovery on peer groups. So I stand by what I say.

Re minors: again, show me I'm wrong. Which meetings are they at? How often do they go? How old are they? Of course I don't go to every meeting - but I go to a lot more thsan you. And, as a result, I not only see who is at my meeting, I hear gossip from all over the Fellowship of who's at other meetings. A teenage member would be news indeed - but I've never heard of one. If you have, tell us about it.

"Even if the founding principles of AA stay intact, you want nothing to do with it. That?s being selfish." But the whole point is that those principles would NOT stay intact. This thread wants to override the principle of anonymity; the principle of not being governed; and the principle of the only requirement for membership being a desire to stop drinking. That's a quarter of our traditions for the sake of a risk which, in the case of children at least, no one on this thread, across the whole of UK AA, has ever personally encountered.

When I referred to "some self-important, power-hungry prick", rest assured, your image was close to my heart.

ah MIF i luv you!!

TheBossofMe

"What changes would you make donewithit? Actual steps you would take". I made a couple of suggestions off of the top of my head. Sponsorship RULES, such as one should not have a criminal history (sexual crimes, violent, etc). To be a sponsor, that should not be allowed AT ALL. (If that might get in the way of a criminals recovery than that is sad, but their problem and not the problem of the possible sponcees). Also, Code Of Conduct policies (no member should be harassed for sex, money, and no member should be bullied). A safety regulator, maybe not at every meeting to start (but that would be nice). Someone for a victim of harassement of any kind to turn to submit complaints. Action about complaints being tended to. One thing would be, YES - kicking a predator out if he/she continues to act out in a harassing way.

"And try and think of more original names!" Why?? For what? That's so silly. BTW, my name "donewithit" means done with drinking. In case you are wondering.

That's because I am your HP, JWN.

Keep loving me and doing what I say or you will develop a squint and all the wheels will fall of your car.

Stay in the cult - stay, stay! Keep giving me a pound a week and make me richer than Croesus!

It's so obvious, I'm surprised more people can't see it.

Donewithit. Cross posting isn't posters referencing each other. It's posting at the same time. Like letters crossing in the mail.

Clearly not possible if it's just a bunch of sock puppets and trolls.

You have issues and I suggest you get help wherever you think best and allow us to do the same.

take me! im yours!! (god, ive been flirting with you for months and it takes this to make you notice me! )

How do you propose checking if sponsors have criminal records. I mean I'm assuming that a sexual predator isn't about to declare himself as such.

It's the gift of sobriety, JWN - give time time.

CRB checks, as in every other organisation in Britain since the Soham murders where anyone comes into contact with young people or vulnerable adults.

hmm donewithit - i have met a guy in AA that i find a real inspiration, he has been sober for many years, is now in his late 70s and is respected by many many 'members' for his advice, his gentleness, his willingness to help others, his kindness and his common sense - i know he is a sponsor to several of the men in the room i use regularly - he is also a convicted killer, has served a life sentence and is out on life licence (a crime committed when blind drunk) - according to your thinking he is not eligible to be a sponsor, he is simply a 'drunk' - i think i prefer his philosophy to yours!

merlincat-I am truly happy for you that you have overcome addiction and moved on.Leaving after 4 months is however, not the typical AA way.

AA encourages people to stay on and sponsor others, do you honor this tradition?

Do you still subscribe to the AA concept of being powerless?

Jamboree, explain the steps at a pragmatic level. Eg when I decide I want person x to be my sponsor how would I go about getting them crb checked.

The point is that it's not as if sponsor is a position you apply for. People in need choose their own. So who would get the crb check enforce the rule etc

Take a moment to remember those who didn't 'get it'

And how they are regarded, if not recorded.

Be free. I know many people who have been to aa for a short time only and only a few longtermers.