to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

thebossofme-excuse me-YOU are the one that stated that your higher power
was/is a bunch of drunks.Those were your words!

It is fine to possibly find support with"a bunch of drunks'-butI take issue with actually making them your higher power.

No I didnt. Show me that quote from me. And it's none of your business who I chose to help me. Not yours, not anyone else's, but my business and mine alone. So please refrain from telling me what I can and cannot do, if you don't mind.

bossofme-okay play head games if you wish. I never told you what to do.
If you want drunks to be your higher power than that is your choice-
I just think it is an odd choice.

"I meant reported to the police. That's the most obvious courseof action" Some reports do make it to the police. In some of those cases nothing can be done because it can only be said that "Mike T" grabbed me, fondled me, etc. This example would pertain to the anonymity aspect. How do police follow up on that? If they do, the victim might feel that they would be ostracisezed by their only "family" and the group that is "helping them recover". Victims may also scared. I was a victim and personally knew/know other victims. Members don't want trouble for AA. It gets hushed up. I've seen it.

Another obvious course of action, would be to try and prevent this type of thing from happening. It could be worked out. It just isn't getting worked out. Not in any way.

Anonymity, how the program "works" perpetuates abusive situations. The structure is designed in such a way that predetors can take advantage. Changes in the structure would help deter this. Again, why not? What is so important that abuse should be allowed to go on? That nothing should be done about it?

merlincat- In AA a doorknog can be your higher power-ANYTHING goes-
as long as you dont find the power within,and depend on AA for decades.

"Why don?t ?the vast majority of members?, not want anyone in charge?" Because we don't want some self-important, power-hungry prick telling us what to do! And I must say that reading some of the responses on this thread has strenghtened me in that resolve.

"The ?key strength? of your movement is what exactly?" That we are all equals and no one is in charge.

"There would be someone to turn to for help if and when criminal activity occurs." There is. In my country, we call it "the police".

"If a child is an alcoholic than it is OK if a child attends? Is that right? I?m really just looking for a clarification." Yes, that is correct, and I have said so all along. However, in the UK, I have never seen or even heard of a minor attending on this basis so the kids are safe for now.

"The only requirement for sponsorship is that they are a recovering alcoholic, but that can be lied about as well." Not that easily - I reckon I could spot a fraud a mile off. But if women stick to women, their chances of running into these dangerous (male) predators is slim.

You and your cronies delight in posting links to sites which are all about how people are "ensnared" by AA and those sites champion the freedom of the individual.

Yet, at the same time, you want AA to fundamentally reorganise to provide a place where no individual responsibility is necessary; you don't need to heed advice because of the bright shiny "rules"; you vet all the members, who have no position of authority, yet no one would suggest vetting all the patrons of a pub; you want rules in place to protect people who don't come (unaccompanied minors) at the expense of the security of people who do come (adult drunks who are afraid of public exposure and distrustful of authority structures or being told what to do or "outed"); the newcomer is deemed unable to make judgement calls, when the very fact they are alive after drinking alcoholically shows they are more than capable of making judgement calls around strangers; and so on.

A DOORKNOB can be your higher power,drunks can be your higher power-
Very ODD indeed.

I don't know what 123's agenda is but I've been to AA meetings and have never witnessed any of the stuff she is spouting. You can come and go as you please. I've never been asked for anything other than my first name. I'm sure there are some bad apples in a service attended by such high numbers but all I have seen is the good work that AA has done.

"A DOORKNOB can be your higher power,drunks can be your higher power-
Very ODD indeed."

Whereas the religions of the world have made consistently rational choices in this respect?

I personally am an atheist in AA and have never had a problem with this stance.

You dont tell me what to say I wont tell you what to say
merlincat.You dont seem to worried about insulting people.

How am I playing head games? I never said anything about a bunch of drunks being my higher power

And you are telling me what to do by "taking issue".

But I think you know that already.

The question is: Is AA a cult?

It is obvious that UKAA is different from AA in America but that is not the question. Could we discuss the cult aspect, having read this link, which is absolutely fascinating, not just in terms of AA (UK, US, Aus or whatever) but in terms of how cults work. It is worth reading even if you are not interested in AA. It is good for everyone to be aware of cults, especially vulnerable people.

www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

There is a forum called 'Molly's' (the unofficial AA UK recovery site) on which a character called Mondotuna has been a mainstay for many years. It is a UK site for UK people looking for help with alcohol problems. If you read the ongoing LIFERING thread, you will see how entrenched he was there, as a moderator, and also how entrenched he has been in the UKAA site. I don't know of another online UK site, so I think we can call it a UK problem, as well as a global problem. He openly mocked people in LIFERING who 'relapsed'. He saw LIFERING as a sort of holding pen for people to 'relapse' until they were desperate enough to join AA. He also used personal information that he gleaned from vulnerable people in his capacity as long term moderator on LIFERING to use to mock them on other sites.

He has been exposed as a long term manipulator of sites that do offer an 'alternative' to AA. The good folks at LIFERING are still coming to terms with the damage he did there. His other aliases (on other 'alternatives' to AA sites and the executives at LIFERING are certainly taking the isssue very seriously.
forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages/?msg=2725.1

And here is the story of his exposure:
stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/29/####-other-gig/comment-page-6/#comment-59481

He was certainly operating in the UK, and dominating the only UKAA site that I know of. He gained status by claiming (and no reason to doubt it) that he was 29 years sober, although I cannot fathom what he was doing.

Which makes it a UKAA issue, not just a US issue.

I prefer to call them people with alcohol abuse issues myself. Label the behaviour not the person, and all that.

But if bunch of drunks works for you, go for it.

No jamboree that is just evidence of a few bad apples.

Funny how so many posters on the thread supporting the cult pov all have the same sources, terminology and inability to understand the meaning of Systematic.

It is suggested in the big book that the AA group can be your higher power.

That in itself, CAN perpetuate a beleif that the group should have power of you in other ways. Sure, that isn't what it is meant to do. But that does happen. You are taught to trust stangers on all levels, simply because they know what it's like to be a drinker. It's just a small part of the big structure that can break down a person. People walk in vulnerable, and in many cases become more vulnerable (to predatory behavior) because they are taught they are powerless and need to depend on other people. Strangers actually. That of course is my opinion, and it is an opinion shared by many, including some professionals like Stanton Peele and Jack Trimpey.

Btw, I know of plenty of uk aa online sites, but they are closed groups and I'm not about to breach anonymity by linking to them here.

Stanton and trimpey both had an issue with court mandated aa, not aa per se. So it's disingenuous to suggest that they support your position. I've never read anything where they call it a cult. They just said its not the only way, which is exactly what aa supporters on this thread such as miflaw and myself are saying.

Funny how none of the critics on this thread crosspost, isn't it. Almost as if they were sharing a keyboard.

"You are taught to trust stangers on all levels, simply because they know what it's like to be a drinker." I think you'll find that most members of AA learnt to do that long before they came to AA, and they learnt it in pubs and on park benches. I know that I fell foul of it when I was 21 and didn't find AA till nearly 7 years later!

jamboree - so you have named one person on an UNOFFICIAL site who is unkind; and that's your evidence that UK AA is a cult?

You're not exactly the new Inspector Morse, are you?

yep!, you are so right run123 - there are people so full of themselves, so clever, so smart and yet quite quite stupid!