to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

"The reason that criminals can do this and that it does happen, is because it is not ?run? by any authoritative figure." That is nonsense. Not only do the vast majority of members - who surely should decide - not want anyone in charge; but having someone in charge does not prevent the involvement of criminals, still less potential or unidentified criminals. You are asking us to sacrifice a key strength of our movement for sometihng that does not work! So, no thanks.

"If 12 step faith healing had not cornered virtually every corner of the recovery market under false pretenses (5% success rate and millions helped without any data to support it), than alcoholics/addicts that need help would have a choice." They do have a choice - CBT, antabuse, lithium, psychotherapy are all available on the NHS. They all fail if the alcoholic does not have the willingness to be honest or if he/she cannot abstain. One of the things AA can achieve is to put them in the position where they can abstain and therefore be receptive to other help.

"BTW, I?m very very happy that AA in the UK does not allow children in any capacity. Does this involve minors, meaning older teens? If it is a new rule" - it is not any rule, new or old. It does allow children - if they self-identify as alcoholics. Otherwise, they are not welcome because they are not alcoholics. It really is that simple.

Bear in mind that AA tends to attract younger members in big cities. I am in London AA and have been for about 7 years. I have NEVER seen a minor at a meeting in his or her own right - I would say that the youngest member I have encountered was 20. Very occasionally (I can think of two) mothers will bring toddlers because they have no baby-sitters. In such cases, of course, the toddler plays no part in the meeting and the mother is present throughout.

Can you tell us about the many minors you personally saw attending regular AA meetings in the UK?

"But what they are not worthy of is becoming a sponsor" - no one appoints a sponsor, it's not like getting your 5 stars at McDonald's. If you think someone is an unsuitable sponsor, do not approach them and ask them to be your sponsor.

It is also standard advice that men should have male sponsors and women should have female sponsors - so men using sponsorship to abuse women is likely to be extremely rare.

MIFLAW - don't waste your breath, some people really are just beyond the pale and no amount of rational argument is going to convince them that just because something didn't work for them, doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone. Or that culturally the UK is very different from the US, so shouting about things that are awful in US AA (and I have no idea if its true or not) isn't relevant in the UK AA.

I'm smelling more than a whiff of sock on this thread now as well.

I know you are right - I just hate the idea of someone who has tried everything else thinking, "I wonder if I should give AA a go?"

And then finding this thread.

And then thinking "fuck that!"

And then carrying on.

And then dying in a very undignified way and bringing further misery to their families, friends and colleagues.

Hopefully that will cheer Kirkers and co up.

Miflaw-you state minors are not allowed in meetings in UK meetings-But then you say they can be if they saty ther are an alcoholic. Well that confirms minors are allowed in at meetings in the UK.You just like to twist it things to make it sound like there are no problems with minors attending meetings.
Well I have a problem with minors attending AA meetings that are alcoholics.
Maybe somehow you did not get that in the many posts I have written.

Plus stop stating I have not been to meetings.I have never stated such.You are just stating things you have no knowledge of.Just because I do not answer you, personal questions about myself because of your mean way of treating people,gives you no right to fill in the blanks.

www.stinkin-thinkin.com has a strong UK following and there are many,many,many articles in regard to the extensive problems in the UK.
The more the UK wants to put there head in the sand does not help the many people being sexually abused.You are trying to stop the much needed pressure that AA needs to investigate and take responsibility for these horrible events that you seem happy to allow to continue because you cannot handle any thing negative being said about AA.So typical of diehard AA stepper.

run - you are the one twisting things, not MIFLAW.

I cannot believe this thread has been resurrected, it's so full of hate and bile.

AA is for may the only hope of regaining sobriety, sanity and self respect, many times when all other options have failed. Run & others - you are making the commitment and effort of alcoholics willing to help themselves and help others sound dirty and cheap. And you are potentially giving drinking alcoholics reading these posts yet another handy excuse for not making it to their local meeting.

On balance, despite how sick it makes me feel, I think it is probably better that this tread is here and everyone can read it - MN is full of people with brains AND heart, there's no doubt they will be able to make their own minds up.

The bossofme-I have stated that AA has worked for some.That does not mean that because it helps some people that means you look the other way when people are being sexually abused and 13 stepped. It happens in the UK people no matter how much you want to deny,deny and deny.

Wherever sexual abuse takes place, the police should be involved and the individual(s) involved appropriately dealt with.

What you don't seem to grasp is that an AA meeting is not an organisation - it's just a bunch of individuals coming together for support in their quest for permanent sobriety. If someone preyed on me at a community barbacue, were a bunch of individuals come together for burgers, drinks and a chat, should I go to the police or complain loudly to... whom?

You'll find bad apples in every barrel, but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

my name is.... (im not going to say! ) and im a alcoholic - i really really do wish that people would stop assuming that because i have a problem with a certain chemical, that i and many thousands of others are incapable of rational thought, incapable of taking care of our personal safety and are more than willing to put our children at risk of rape and abuse - it really is very insulting!

Run, in the uk, 20 is not a minor, its an adult. So no minors in aa

Again, where is your evidence of systematic abuse in aa uk

"Well that confirms minors are allowed in at meetings in the UK." Indeed it does and I have never said any different. What I have said is that I have never, in the many AA meetings I have attended, ever seen a minor in attendance on these terms. Nor have I ever seen an unaccompanied minor in attendance on any terms. Nor have I ever seen an accompanied minor between the ages of 3 and 18 in attendance on any terms. So your fears seem a bit - well, how best to put this? - irrelevant. and mad.

"Well I have a problem with minors attending AA meetings that are alcoholics." So - assuming such a person ever materialises (most alcoholic minors are still suffering very little from it so are extremely unwilling to attend AA, which they typically think will be full of very old men), what solution to their alcoholism do you NOT have a problem with?

"Plus stop stating I have not been to meetings.I have never stated such." Nor have I.

"You are just stating things you have no knowledge of." No I'm not.

"Just because I do not answer you, personal questions about myself because of your mean way of treating people,gives you no right to fill in the blanks." Yes it does, on the same basis that you are filling in the blanks (wrongly) about me.

It's very simple - I think you have a particular axe to grind about AA and I think you owe it to everyone on the thread to set your stall out, exactly as I have, so that everyone can see what position you are starting from. You don't want to? Fair enough. But then don't blame everyone else, including me, from drawing their own assumptions.

"My mean way of treating people" - presumably this means that I refuse to let you tell me how to speak/write on an open website and told you to mind your own business. Perhaps that's why you struggled in AA - because you were always telling others what to do and they told you to do the other thing? Just guessing, of course.

jesuswhatnext-Some people are more vulnerable than others.There are also people who are so full of themselves they think they are to superior to be taken advantage of-just to smart. But many smart people are financially scammed and sexually abused. The fact is that is happening in the rooms all the time.So you should not be insulted when there is an obvious need to warn people because it is happening a great deal-even to smart people who have rational thought!

A bunch of drunks being close friends etc is one thing-but to have them be your higher power? Please.......

Just because master Miflaw has not seen something-does not make it
not so. Minors do attend meetings in the UK and the US.

Thebossofme-Internal letters from AA discussing the abuse-but choosing to do nothing-and www.stinkin-thinkin.com. If you are really interested you would read alll of the research and documentation-but I have a feeling even if you did it would not matter.

Miflaw-typical AA tribble- If you dont go to AA you will DIE.
That is part of the brainwashing.That is part of the cult aspect.

Run I've read the site and I simply don't see evidence of SYSTEMATIC abuse in uk aa. I see a few isolated instances which are not evidence of a grand conspiracy on the scale of the catholic church abuses and coverups. Not in the uk. As I said I can't comment on the us.

But you just carry on grinding your axe.

Out of interest, how did you find mumsnet

Run: "A bunch of drunks"

Right, now you've said it all. By definition, they are not "a bunch of drunks". You want to find "a bunch of drunks", pop into your local.

What's wrong with people drawing support from one another and wherever they can find it?

You are seriously offensive now run. Bunch of drunks. Nice. Am moving into ignoring you because you clearly have no idea what youre talking about at all.

?If the abuse which you say is so systematic?. is not reported to the proper authorities or to AA, how are they supposed to a) know about it and b) do anything about it??

Much abuse has been reported, but not only was there no investigation or changes in policy, the reports went ignored. There wasn?t even a return letter or phone call. That is denial. If I was an organizational leader (and I?d like to think that most other people would care), I?d be very interested in these claims. I wouldn?t want a program that was designed to help people actually hurt some people.

It really shouldn?t matter how long someone was a regular poster on mumsnet. This for me is about awareness. If MN didn?t want different people popping in and posting, they wouldn?t allow it.

Why don?t ?the vast majority of members?, not want anyone in charge? Someone in charge could help facilitate a ?code of conduct policy?. There would be someone to turn to for help if and when criminal activity occurs.

What ?sacrifice? would groups be making exactly? The ?key strength? of your movement is what exactly? How can safety precautions, specific guidelines about safety, hamper other members? recovery? What is so special about this ?movement? (that has a 5% success rate) that safety issues should not be addressed? Should some people suffer so that others can get well? That?s called sacrifice.

?No thanks? you said. Why? How hampered would your recovery be if safety measures were taken. Safety pamphlets issued (along with the hundreds of pro AA recovery issues?) would be a start. Code of conduct policies would help. Strict sponsorship rules (not just suggestions and guidelines) would be great. Also, a safety (authoritative) representative of some sort would be awesome. What is so wrong with the above? Who and how would this hurt? How could the above hamper an alcoholic or addiction recovery?

?Can you tell us about the many minors you personally saw attending regular AA meetings in the UK?? No I can?t. What does that matter? I said on page 24 that (in reference to another posters claim) ?I?m very very happy that AA in the UK does not allow children in any capacity?. If it is disallowed than I do think it is wonderful. That doesn?t mean that there are not other issues. It just means, that one of them is being tended to rightfully.

?It does allow children - if they self-identify as alcoholics.? Oh, so it does allow children in some capacities. If a child is an alcoholic than it is OK if a child attends? Is that right? I?m really just looking for a clarification.

?If you think someone is an unsuitable sponsor, do not approach them and ask them to be your sponsor?. Yes true. If a prospective sponsor says ?I was busted for sexual abuse 2 years ago? then certainly I wouldn?t seek out that person to sponsor me. Unfortunately, just because the program/12 steps want you to be honest and moral and loving, doesn?t mean that people are. The only requirement for sponsorship is that they are a recovering alcoholic, but that can be lied about as well. There is no specific guidelines to sponsorship (only suggestions) and no one to make sure that any specific guidelines are adhered to.

?Standard advice? about sponsorship? How about something a little bit more than substantial advice? And why not more?

Yes, maybe people should say "fuck that" when they contemplate 12 step meetings. Again, awareness and change is what this is about. People should be scared to some level. People should be questioning safety issues. Personal and invididual welfare for members should come before AA unity.

We are not vile in any way. It is more the other way around. Some members protect AA so dilligently, without even wanted to consider that it could be harmful.

Again I ask, why doesn't AA make an investigation into claims? What is so wrong with making changes to ensure member safety rather than just trying to ensure the recovery group's welfare? Both can be done.

I meant reported to the police. That's the most obvious courseof action

And I still smell sock

"Just because master Miflaw has not seen something-does not make it
not so. Minors do attend meetings in the UK and the US." of course it doesn't. But at least I am speaking from a point of experience rather than tirelessly linking to the same old American sites. And, based on the time I've been in and where I attend meetings, it does make it statistically far less likely. So, if i'm wrong, show me. Where in the UK are these minors attending meetings as self-confessed alcoholics and how old are they?

"Miflaw-typical AA tribble- If you dont go to AA you will DIE.
That is part of the brainwashing.That is part of the cult aspect." You can actually READ, can't you? I mean, you haven't got a friend reading this aloud to you?

Lots of people stop drinking in lots of different ways and whatever works for you is brilliant. The much maligned Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous says so explicitly, incidentally - "If anyone ... can do the right about face and 'drink like a gentleman,' our hats are off to him. Heaven knows we have tried often enough!" NO ONE is obliged to go to AA.

But - and this is what I actually said - if it so happened that AA could help a particular individual, or even if it was their only remaining option, it would be a terrible thing if, thanks to pointless, scaremongering threads like this, they did not try it out and were then to die (because, whether you go to AA or not, whqat IS clear is that, left untreated, alcoholism kills an enormous number of people in very unpleasant ways.)